jf5

What do you think the approximate kill is?? Even if you reduce those figures by 25%, thats still allot of deer...

patrkyhntr

OK, let's not make it personal. But it seems that you want just that. Why else would you question what I do for a living? I am retired. I don't work for anyone. As far as I know, I have no relatives who work for either DCNR or the PAGC, so put that stupid puppy to rest, will you? Are you one of Jim Slinsky's relatives? Maybe Jim himself?

Check stations would be nice, but what makes you think those same scoflaws who don't send in their report cards would go one foot out of their way to take their deer to a check station? You and I both know people who butcher their own deer and haven't sent in a report card in twenty years. Would you set these stations up at every intersection? Who do you think would pay for the cost? It works fairly well for black bears because we only kill a few thousand of them and "sportsmen" seem to be happy to check them in for the recognition it gets them. It doesn't work that way for deer. What recognition do you get for shooting a button buck? By the way, I hear that Maryland got about 45% of their deer brought to check stations. How did they figure that one out? I guess they estimated it.

Again, if you don't like the blame commission's figures for deer harvests, please provide me with a source for your more accurate ones.

Perhaps you are a lazy wannabe sportsman and perhaps not. I would have no knowledge of that since I don't know you and you obviously know nothing about me or you would not have asked such questions as you asked unless your sole purpose was to stir up arguments.

Since you seem to be fond of personal observations as to deer and the health of the forest, here is one of mine. I used to hunt a place close to Orbisonia along a road called Black Log Bench Road. The DCNR logged this area about fifteen years ago. They put fences up in some sections. You should see the difference between the fenced sections and the unfenced areas. The only difference is that the deer are free to feed outside the fences. Without trees there is no forest.

A second observation of mine is that I am seeing far fewer songbirds in the woods than I used to see. This seems to be because many of them nest and feed in the understory. In many areas of our forests there is no understory.

A third observation is that the population of deer seems to have crashed in the mid to late 1990's in the Young Woman's Creek area of Clinton County. A friend of mine who hunts there told me that. He has been hunting out of the same camp for thirty five years. He also told me that the doe licenses for that area sold out almost immediately and that many went unused. It would seem that you sportsmen who hunt there are doing what you want us to do without the Pa. Game Commission to help you.

A fourth observation from my personal hunting experience is that the deer are a lot more wary now than they were five years ago. Perhaps this is because of our having that early muzzleloader season. I suspect that the fewer deer in the woods are smarter deer by the time rifle season rolls around. They are also much harder to pattern than they used to be. I worked on one big buck most of archery season and never got his pattern figured out. Maybe he figured out mine?

With such a thing as managing millions of acres of state forest, gamelands, and a huge population of deer as well, there are no simple solutions. Apparently there are plenty of simple people around, though. Please be assured that I work hard for every deer I get and will continue to do so. I used to see fifty deer on the first day of buck season. This year I saw six. Things have changed. You either change in response to the changes in the situation or your success as a hunter or hunting wannabe will go down. The choice is yours. Of course you can keep on posting on message boards like this one. It won't put more deer in your favorite deer woods, but it might make you feel better.

patrkyhntr

What motivation would the blame commission have to falsify those figures? I can tell you that I think they are fairly accurate, but since us "sportsmen" don't return all of our report cards, they can't be one hundred percent accurate. They are the best available. If you have a source for better and more accurate figures, please post it. Personally, I do think the PAGC has a better idea of how many deer are killed statewide than either of us does. If you think you are better at this than they are, apply for the job.

Most people I talk to have never seen the hunting this difficult either. We are in the same boat here. I have freely admitted that I don't see as many deer as I used to see. Still, I think herd reduction was necessary. I have given my reasons for that in other posts. Also, I like the AR program.

patrkyhntr

By the way, and just for your information, I left the house this morning to take a walk in the mountains. It is rough going with the ice crust on top of the snow. I saw only three sets of tracks on the mountain, but when I went across to the low ridge above the farm fields there were tracks and fresh scat everywhere. I didn't see that many deer as were obviously making all those tracks during rifle season. Where were they? I don't know, but I am trying to get a better idea.

BTBowhunter

Seems to me you have done the very thing that many accuse the PGC of doing. Using partial information and assumptions to draw a conclusion.You overheard someone say something they got 4 doe and a buck but you cant say where in 2G or even if they hunted 2G at all!!!

It's no wonder the PGC doesnt give any credibility to "stories from hunters"

germain

Turkeyhunter,
I agree an understory is a good thing but you need sunlight to get that understory.Everytime I see a clearcut or opening in the canopy there's new growth.In these places a person can look 25 yards to his right and there will be a thick canopy with no understory and or ferns.
Through many years of being in the woods I've seen this result.You can take an area of old growth and kill every last deer and there's still not going to be an understory.Forest management has to take place for good new growth to take place.Killing all the deer won't get it done.

germain

Also turkeyhunter speaking for the areas I hunt the deer aren't any more weary then they were 20 years ago when we had alot more small game hunters tramping through the woods.In fact I used to see triple the small game hunters in the woods then I do early ML and rifle hunters.

patrkyhntr

We obviously have a difference of opinion as to the wariness of deer, germaine, and I accept that. I do not favor cutting trees so that there will be more food for deer. I hope you are not saying that overpopulation of deer is not what produced the browselines in the northcentral forests. If so, I believe you are wrong and we will have to disagree about that as well.

I favor cutting trees to harvest a crop that is worth harvesting and that by harvesting it you will not damage the ecological balance. I do not favor never cutting trees, as those who want zero use of our forests seem to want. Trees are a renewable resource and can be used if used according to a well conceived plan. In short, the forest must be managed for the health of the forest and not to produce the maximum number of deer for the happiness of hunters. Unfortunately we did just the opposite for many years. Now we have to pay the price for that mismanagement of the past half-century. You will never see the herds of deer that you used to see. Perhaps that is unfortunate. Perhaps not. It is the way things are.

patrkyhntr

I should add one thing, germaine. As to the hunters in the woods, I agree with you that there are definitely fewer. I saw a grand total of four other hunters in the woods during the two weeks of rifle season. Where is that pumpkin army everyone seems to be so afraid of? They sure aren't on state gamelands 81, at least not the part of that 2000 acres that I hunt.

I will stand by what I said. Small game hunters didn't scare the deer nearly as much as being shot at does. My deer are much more wary than they used to be by the time rifle season rolls around. You are lucky yours aren't. Hunting must be much easier for you than it is for me where I hunt. I believe my deer are born scared.

germain

Turkeyhunter,I'm not saying they should manage the forest for deer only.But I do feel they have a responsibility of managing for wildlife and creating a healthy forest environment.That means not caving into the extreme environmentalists when they hold up the cutting of timber on state or federal lands.
In the past the forests would stay healthy from mother nature by way of lightening strikes which in turn caused fires that lasted days and burned thousands upon thousands of acres.We all know what that creates for the wildlife.But now we won't let fires burn themselves out and we haven't for years.So in turn now we have to take the place of some of those fires we won't let burn.
Clearcutting is a good thing,both for timber and for wildlife including song birds you mentioned.
Yes the DCNR is in the timber buisness but the state forest land was also put aside for recreation which deer hunting is.
Like I said in my earlier post the understory won't grow without man's help.