HEAD0001

I was not trying to call you out, and I tried to be polite in how I answered your post. But what you posted in definitlery wrong. Ifsomeone from Savage told you that then they are wrong also.

Headspace has absolutely nothing to do with the "Bullet", and the "Lands of the rifle". A cartridge either headspaces off the shoulder, the belt, or the rim. Never ever on the bullet.

And your next error was that you implied that Remington did not check the headspace on their rifles. And that is ridiculous to say.

And when you discuss rifling did you know that button rifling is the cheapest way to put the rifling in the barrel?? It is also the roughest way, and that is why the barrel needs lapped. And then you say they "Hand Lap" the barrel afterwards. I would have to see that in writing. And if they hand lapped their barrels they would definitely advertise that. It takes a good bit of time(an hour or more) to properly hand lap a barrel. And I am pretty sure they do not spend that much additional time on the barrel.

Last but not least. I was a sales rep. Savage has independent sales reps that do not work for the company(Savage). They work for an independent company that represents Savage. Tom.

outdoorsmen

yeah it's an indepentent company, so what. they still have to learn their products. all my gun reps are from id companys.
i didn't imply anything on remington, i asked a question.
i'm not argueing with you. i'm just stating what i have been told, but i'm also not saying that i believe you.
if you say button rifling is so bad then why does it work so good? you didn't say what remington uses?
then what is the proper term for the "bullet to land fit"

no offense but what makes you an authority on the ins and outs of savage?

HEAD0001

First of all I was a rep, and I have been there. But that is neither here nor there. And second I did not bash Savage. I own Savage rifles, and I am very happy with them. I have not taken any sides in this hunt, but I do personally prefer the Remington.

I did not say button rifling was bad. I said it was the cheapest way to do rifling. Button rifling has worked out well for Savage. But it is the reason why Savage rifles tend to foul a bit faster(because the rifling itself is rougher). And you said that your rep. said they hand lapped the barrel, and all I am saying is that I do not believe that.

All I said was that how you described headspace adjustment at the factory is inaccurate. That is all I said. You have implied everything else. Headspace is not measured by "bullet to land fit". "Bullet to land fit" has nothing at all to do with headspace. And all I did was to point that out.

I am not an authority on the ins and outs of Savage. But I do understand basic rifle terminology. And you unfortunately are using your terms incorrectly. I am sorry, but that is the truth.

I really do not wish to argue, but when you make an error in your terminology about headspace you can create a real problem(dangerous situation)for shooters and riflemen who are just starting out(especially beginner reloaders). And if you have been selling rifles for 8 years then you really have a lot to learn about your terminology. To tell a shooter that the "bullet touches the lands" can create severe pressure problems, and that term is not to be taken lightly. Sorry, Tom.

DM

Nice buck....

I agree, that the BESTrifle for you, is the one thatYOU like best... Savage makes a good rifle, but make mine the Remington please.

DM

oldelkhunter

You can lead a horse to water . I am glad you have 8 years of experience backing up your claims.

Remington uses Hammer Forged Barrels originally they were button rifled. Some of their custom shop guns might use that techniqueas well. Sako,Tikka,Winchester,FN,CZ,Steyr,Weatherby and Ruger as well as others use the same technique(Hammer Forging). The barrels are nice and straight and depending on how frequently the mandrel is changed out very smooth.I know that the only barrels that surpass the barrels on a STeyr,Sako or Tikka are custom barrels that are either button rifled or cut rifled. Hammer forging a barrel is an expensive proposition with machines that cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. All that is required to build a button rifled barrel is a deep hole driller and a hydraulic jack that sends a carbide button thru the hole to impress its rifling. WIth a custom buttonbarrel the hole is first drilled via deep hole drilling and then polished to remove tool marks and then the button is inserted and pulled thru the bore creating the rifling. After this the barrels are lapped with a lead lap(molten lead poured into the barrel to create a slug and run up and down the barrel with lapping compouind), It then takes an hour or more to remove tool marks. Do you think Savage does this procedureon every individual barrel? I will bet everything I own that they don't do those steps.They drill and pull the button thru,straighten the barrel. As far as the Go-No-Go gauge that is a fallacy. All you do is chamber the round and screw the barrel down until the bolt closes or doesn't close if it is good you tighten the Savage barrel nut. There is a lot more work involved if a Remington does not headspace correctly. So yes it makes it an assembly operation and not a gunsmith operation.

pahntr760

I own Remington rifles exclusively now. I have owned Savages, and see nothing wrong with them. I just prefer the fit of a remington and the feel of the action over a Savage. I'm gonna leave it at that andI will not justify myself at all!

DM

You may not likeold elk's answer, but he's right...

DM

A11en

I've owned Savage, Winchester, Remington, and Kimber rifles. I love Kimber, but the wife won't let me spend $2,000 on each rifle (rifle & scope). Of the remaining three, I prefer Remington 700's.

Why I don't like the savage:
- I've always viewed savage as an economy line of firearms - validated by the cr@p scopes they put on the package deals
- I don't like overall looks. Specifically the brand "savage" printed on the bolt, the stock is basic, and the bolt ejector handle.
- The action is clunky
- Did I mention they're ugly
- My Savage produced 1.5 inch groups

Why I love my Remington 700's:
- Mine shoot an inch or less groups
- Smooth actions - butter like smooth on my Stainless SPS .300 WSM and Stainless Mtn Rife in .243.
- I prefer the look of Remingtons excluding the blued SPS, which is Savage like ugly. (I have one in .308)

Remington for me!

A11en

I should also point out the top post on the "GUN" forum is a "Which Gun?" poll. 32% choose Remington, while 8% choose Savage. Based on that poll, three out of four people prefer Remington.

outdoorsmen

ok mr. webster so i misused a word, oh please forgive me (i'm not really asking for your forgiveness). i now have seen the light you have shined upon me in all your wisdom. my experience cannot hold a candle to your wealth of knowledge.

i was simply repeating what i was told.

i know numerous reloaders that measure out the bullet to tuch the lands. i guess they're wrong too. but their rifles haven't blown up.

honestly i really don't give a s**t. but now that you are calling workers "unskilled" that really pisses me off. I'll overlook all the innuendos directed at me, i don't care, think whatever you want. but when you want to call people "unskilled" who aren't even present to defend themselves is a low blow. to me that is a sign of arrogance.

this has gotten to blown out of proportion. I'm done with this topic. I'll let you sit behind your computers and throw up your hands and pump your fists and yell out "yes i win again!!!" I'll admit i used a term wrong but i'm not going to let you belittle people.
old-neigh, neigh galop galop. my horse drinks beer
head-glad ya been there
peace.