The problem is prohibition. The onlypeople affected byprohibiting or banning the posession or use of something are honest people who obey the law. The others are criminals, by definition.

Unless you do make alluniversities have mandatory metal detectors and armed guards, this crap will continue to happen with increasing regularity if concealed carry is prohibited in colleges and/or universities. One solution equals a large extra cost, and one is essentially free, nearly as effective, and virtually no more dangerous.

Keep in mind these same "punk kids" that you don't want carrying in college, are legally carrying at the mall, stores, virtually anyplace in public. How are they responsible enough to carry there but not in the classroom? Why should we say "sure, defend yourself anywhere else, but not here."?

Let me ask you this, SC: Do you support any members of the public carrying arms on our person for defense of self? Before you answer this, I want you to forget all about the location it is.

I think you may be buying into the emotional argument against guns when the subject of schools come up. Schools really aren't any different than anywhere else. There is no reason for people in schools to have their right to self defense revoked. The only problem with schools I can think of is posessing in dorms due to how many people are in and out of there who may gain unauthorized use of the weapon. If that problem is overcome, then I see no reason to ban guns in certain places.

Bad people can exist anywhere, at any time. Why would you want to help them kill people? By banning law abiding citizens from carrying weapons, you are helping these psychos kill more people. Instead of leading students to the slaughter like cattle, why not allow them the option of preventing that?

Edited to add the following:

The fact that there are so many people without a moral compass, who don't value human life essentially helps make my argument for me. Who will protect people from people like these? The police can't, there aren't enough police to have an individual officer assigned to everybody. Even if there were, I wouldn't want to live that way. No, the way to solve this problem is for every single adult to step up and take responsibility for our own safety. This requires the ability to go about armed, although it's not the only thing that can be done, it's another tool in your toolbox, so to speak.

Very well put Sandman!!!

Tim; please forgive me, but I am going to rearrange the order of your questions, just to take them in turn so you can understand where I am coming from. Hope you don't mind.

I totally agree with you Tim. It is hard for me to swallow the sense in this. I do see where you are coming from though.

I agree Tim. But I am looking at the problem differently. Let me reword the entire problem with guns and schools to something else, and then hopefully we can see each others approach:

You are looking at a headache and saying, how can we fight this, how can we make this go away? I am looking at the same headache and thinking how can we keep from getting a headache in the first place? I hope that makes a bit of sense.

Of course I do.

They would not have the option of preventing it... metal detectors and armed guards would be preventing it..... students with concealed handguns would be combating it.

All I have to say in return is that it will only take one.... it will only take one accidental discharge in a school... or one hot headed young man bent up over losing his girlfriend or his scholarship to go off the handle and misuse that priviledge to perhaps completely ban concealed carry altogether. Do I think it is a good enough reason to rule out the option of carry in the classroom... no I do not. But it is something to consider and dwell on a bit.

Think on this too.... in a situation like VT, where you have shootings in multiple buildings, lets say that there were armed students, legally that is... when the police arrive, how do they identify who is on which side? How do they know the perpetrator from the good samaritan? This is one of the fundamental training tools with concealed carry.... when the police arrive.. you had best not have a gun in your hand! With a live situation like that, it may well errupt into a firefight. With casualties being caused by friendly fire. Again... is the risk worth it? just some food for thought. How do we decide who can carry and who cannot? Is it going to turn the Student Body Government into the Student Body Militia?

I don't buy that argument. It is still an emotional cop-out. Your concerns quoted here are no different than situations that could happen at malls, stores, the pizza joint, or anyplace else in public where concealed carry of weapons is legal. No different what so ever. So once again, if you delete school/university from what I quoted above, and substitute in "mall", "store", etc, do you still feel that way about people carrying firearms? There's an equal chance of someone going off the deep end anywhere else as there is in school.

It shouldn't be too hardto tell the difference between someone who is randomly and deliberately shooting at innocent people versus someone who is acting to stop the "bad guy". After that guy is stopped, put your weapon away. Pretty much just like you would if you stopped a shooter in the mall or a church. The ballistics of your weapon and the shooters weapon will be checked, they will determine the guy you shot was shooting people, and you will be good to go if you're legally able to have the weapon at the location you had to use it. That's not to say you won't need a lawyer, but you will walk if the evidence points to it being self defense. When the shooting is over, nobody is going to rush in and start shooting eachother. It just doesn't work that way.

Again, I reiterate, if people are able to qualify for a concealed weapons permit, they should be qualified to carry it whereever they may legally be with a possible exception of heavily secured areas at which they can check their weapons and pick them up again when they leave. If a place is willing to do that, to guarantee security on a building, fine I guess. I just don't see universities, colleges and so forth going for such a plan.

Actually, a good many crimes are prevented daily just by the presence of firearms. If you were a criminal, or deranged and wanted to harm as many people as possible, would you go to an area where literally hundreds of people couldalso have guns, or would you go where nobody can legally have guns? Most criminals are not stupid, nor are they particularly suicidal. Occasionally you do run into someone dumb or crazy enough to deliberately strike where people are armed. It's not often though. I submit that the presence of firearms or the possibility of presence would at least help as a deterrent. If the deterrant wasn't enough, at least we probably won't have to see 30+ people dying in an incident because police weren't able to get there in time.

EDITED TO ADD:

I forgot to address the prevention versus response. I do understand what you mean, in that it would probably be better to prevent something from occurring versus having people ready to put the shooter down after he/she starts. One problem with prevention is the economics and simple scale of the situation. I don't think the majority of people would be willing to submit to a daily search of their person or their effects (bag, etc), even if by metal detector. Do you know how many entries and exits these buildings have? They would have to either close a bunch of entry/exit doors permanently, or put metal detectors and armed guards at each and every entrance and exit of each and every building on campus. The economics of the situation are going to prohibit that.

Now the school might try a few "feel good" measures that don't really help anybody's safety, but short of armed guards and metal detectors at every door in every building on campus, they cannot sufficiently guarantee nobody will get in there with a weapon. As a result of that, the only reasonable solution is to allow individuals to be responsible for our own self defense.

Swampcollie, I totally see what you are saying, I really do. I just have to dissagree. Schools are no different than any place else that we carry. I carry my gun everywhere I go, except work, and I leave it in the truck. I would carry at work but it's against company policy. I wish there was something we could do to make all of these crazy people that want to kill others, feel love and peace, but we can't. They are mentally disabled and they somehow think they can become famous by killing a lot of innocent people and then taking their own lives. I think they are in the same mind set as a suicide bomber. Until we can fix a huge problem with society, we must protect ourselves.

Well, most pizza joints are also ABC on... but that is neither here nor there. There is a difference between a school and a pizza joint. A huge difference. Infact, I will give you a true to life... yes it happened example. Hurricane Katrina.

When the New Orleans police rounded everyone up and put them at the Superdome, what happened? It consolodated all the gangs that had problems with each other into one condensed mass. Basically, it was a civil war reenactment... only nobody was acting and the performers were using live rounds. Hanging out at the mall isn't a mandatory event... granted at most colleges class isn't either. But it puts people who can potentially have issues with each other close at hand, on a regular basis.

High schools are really more of a pertinent example here because school is not optional, but in the case of concealed carry, unless you attend high school in West Virginia, no students will have reached the legal age to purchase, possess or carry a handgun. So it is rather moot.

No it shouldn't be. But it is. Perpitrator is white male, brown hair, white shirt, blue jeans... gee that narrows it down.... it can and does happen. Cops spend plenty of time after the fact trying to sort everything out and figure who is who. The risk is inherent, and as you put it necessary, I agree.


Again, I reiterate, if people are able to qualify for a concealed weapons permit, they should be qualified to carry it whereever they may legally be with a possible exception of heavily secured areas at which they can check their weapons and pick them up again when they leave. If a place is willing to do that, to guarantee security on a building, fine I guess. I just don't see universities, colleges and so forth going for such a plan.

This is a bit off base. Not saying it is wrong. But you need to look at your typical school shooter here: metal issues. Not really a prior criminal looking to snatch a purse or knock over a liquor store. Typically social outcasts. In the case of the criminal as it is defined for our purposes... yes, he is stupid... or should we say metally disturbed. At any rate, he is a few rounds shy of a full box so to speak. They are, also in the case of our school shooters, EXTREMELY suicidal. I'm not going to dive into the psychology of these guys, but basically they are control freaks. They feel like they cannot control anything in their lives. Same sort as kids who cut themselves... its a method of maintaining control... they control their pain. These school shooters feel power and control by playing God and striking out againest innocent people, and ultimately themselves. They are quite often too afraid of death to commit suicide, so they have to do something that pushes them over the edge... some choose "suicide by cop" which would ultimately happen anyway in most of these cases... but again, they long for control and take their own lives.

I agree with that.

Something tells me that the NCAA will buy metal detectors before opening up to concealed carry. I think most people would feel more comfortable with that alternative, I agree that it would become tedious. Honestly, I tend to side with you this one Tim. How many of us are sick of searches and what not at the airport (I am), right after 911 we were screaming for everyone to be searched.. spare no one... take Grandmas walker away and cut it open to check for C4... 7 years later and we just want to get on the damn plane already. And not only would economics be a problem at universities with metal detectors and blocking off entries/exits... fire code... talk about a catch-22.

I agree. Heck maybe you convinced me. Or at least gave me enough to think about to settle my opinion.

See, we can disagree and have a civil debate! Holy crap..... I think thats a first on HNI!

To start off, I reckon, there haven’t been a whole lot of pizza joint shootings on TV, but the mall, church and other similar shootings recently have been all over TV though. Malls and churches, like schools, often have a very diverse mix of people in them, and sometimes there are problems.

Let me tell you what is also not on TV. Stories in which citizens lawfully defended themselves from criminals and/or psychopaths through the use of weapons carried on their person. There are many such stories they could pick up, more in fact, than the rampages. That doesn’t keep with their agenda, however, and gets buried in the myriad of bad news they always try to push.

Also like schools, sometimes psychopaths go to malls or churches and so forth to try to kill a lot of people and then themselves. Neither place should be a criminal empowerment zone as a result. This is the best reason I can think of to allow carry, in order to put a stop to people like this in a hurry if they do pose a problem.

The Katrina thing is more a result of giving handouts and the feelings many in the region have of entitlement to things they do not necessarily deserve than the school situation. This is more of a political topic, however, and so I’ll end discussion of that line right there.

In colleges and universities, which are what I am referring to when I say “school”, the situation is not the same as having a bunch of thugs thrown into a stadium after their homes were destroyed. The Katrina thing is interesting but it isn’t even close to this particular debate. If anything, all the gang members out there should be more evidence that concealed carry is necessary.

Another difference in schools vs Katrina, is the simple matter of choice. Students choose to go to colleges or universities. The people in the hurricane aftermath didn’t really get much of a choice. That is a huge difference. Chances are if someone wants to be somewhere, they will be less cranky or disagreeable than if they get thrown into a situation.

High school is irrelevant, I agree with you, and it is not what I have in mind when I say “school”. See above.

I’m not sure what you mean with that. I’m talking about people in the same room as the shooter who know who the bad guy is. I’m talking about someone walking by in the hallway when the shooting starts and sees who the shooter is. These people can tell instantly who the bad guy is because he is the only one present who is shooting at a crowd of people for no apparent reason. That makes it extremely easy for a concealed weapon permit holder to identify and engage the target.

I don’t expect any concealed weapon permit holder to run across campus to try to intervene in that situation, because it is not their responsibility. Their responsibility lies in making sure themselves and those around them remain safe until the situation is over. Rushing across campus to try to save the day is not the wise nor prudent thing for them to do because if they do that, then they do stand a chance of being misidentified, arrested or shot under the assumption they’re one of the troublemakers. As a concealed weapon holder, if I’m not in the immediate vicinity of a situation (which I have been lucky enough to avoid yet), I will get as many people to an exit as possible rather than try to make my way across the mall or campus to try to engage the target.

On the other hand, if I am stuck between this “bad guy” and an exit or if those around me are, then yes, I will do my best to end the threat, in this case that means shooting the “bad guy”. In any case, to those in the area, who are getting shot at or those nearby, the shooter is very obvious.

Actually, there have been situations with these potential school shooters who have given up when confronted by persons with firearms. In fact, there was an incident before the VA Tech massacre in which a similar massacre was prevented by the “bad guy” being confronted by an armed individual. The guy just gave up when confronted. That doesn’t sound too suicidal to me. They actually showed that on the news in addition to the VA Tech stuff. I don’t have a link to the article, unfortunately, I just saw it on Fox News when they were doing the coverage of the VA tech massacre.

This seems mostly correct. This is why they pick places like schools, churches, malls, and other weapons free zones for their rampages. They are afraid of armed people cutting their “fun” short. Even if allowing CCW doesn’t work as a deterrent to the crazy person starting the rampage, it can darn sure end the rampage sooner than relying on the individual to get bored and shoot themselves. There is no way anybody should be left at the mercy of a crazy person.

The NCAA has nothing to say in the matter. It is only a matter of state law. If the state decides carry is ok, that’s that, and there isn’t a thing the NCAA can do about it. I think it would be far more expensive than you think to actually “secure” the campus by orders of magnitude. Not to mention you actually have to hire some decent quality guards who are going to cost more than minimum wage by quite a bit. You need someone who won’t run away from his/her post when threatened or attacked.

Security is an illusion in most cases. Security is something to make people “feel” safe. Most things companies or schools do for “security” do nothing to protect anybody from anything, including “weapons free zones”, because they only apply to honest law abiding people. There is no possible way to protect people from every single thing. Therefore people need to be able to be responsible for our own safety everywhere. That’s how it used to be, you know, before this culture developed of “just give them what they want” or “let the police handle it, it’s too dangerous to stand up for yourself”, or any number of the other lines of bovine excrement spoon fed through the media and big city chiefs of police intended to get people to just give in to the criminal element and crazy people.

Sometimes, the only possible solution is to fight back, and that can’t be done effectively in a weapons free zone.

I heard or read somewhere recently,perhaps on a forum here that this problem (school shootings) was big in Israel some years ago. They totally stopped it by arming the instructors. Take it for what it's worth............

Most think that if it was allowed to carry in schools that every student and teacher would carry. People keep forgetting that to carry is a huge responsibility and maybe 1/3 of people that take their CCW classes actually choose to get their CPL, and probably half or less of them carry all the time. If one student/teacher would have been able to carry this guywould have been stopped. Or should we justsue the doctor or the gun companies after the fact. Law abiding citizens should be able to carry anywhere.