ORIGINAL: the_sandman_454
I don't buy that argument. It is still an emotional cop-out. Your concerns quoted here are no different than situations that could happen at malls, stores, the pizza joint, or anyplace else in public where concealed carry of weapons is legal. No different what so ever. So once again, if you delete school/university from what I quoted above, and substitute in "mall", "store", etc, do you still feel that way about people carrying firearms? There's an equal chance of someone going off the deep end anywhere else as there is in school.
Well, most pizza joints are also ABC on... but that is neither here nor there. There is a difference between a school and a pizza joint. A huge difference. Infact, I will give you a true to life... yes it happened example. Hurricane Katrina.
When the New Orleans police rounded everyone up and put them at the Superdome, what happened? It consolodated all the gangs that had problems with each other into one condensed mass. Basically, it was a civil war reenactment... only nobody was acting and the performers were using live rounds. Hanging out at the mall isn't a mandatory event... granted at most colleges class isn't either. But it puts people who can potentially have issues with each other close at hand, on a regular basis.
High schools are really more of a pertinent example here because school is not optional, but in the case of concealed carry, unless you attend high school in West Virginia, no students will have reached the legal age to purchase, possess or carry a handgun. So it is rather moot.
It shouldn't be too hard to tell the difference between someone who is randomly and deliberately shooting at innocent people versus someone who is acting to stop the "bad guy".
No it shouldn't be. But it is. Perpitrator is white male, brown hair, white shirt, blue jeans... gee that narrows it down.... it can and does happen. Cops spend plenty of time after the fact trying to sort everything out and figure who is who. The risk is inherent, and as you put it necessary, I agree.
Again, I reiterate, if people are able to qualify for a concealed weapons permit, they should be qualified to carry it whereever they may legally be with a possible exception of heavily secured areas at which they can check their weapons and pick them up again when they leave. If a place is willing to do that, to guarantee security on a building, fine I guess. I just don't see universities, colleges and so forth going for such a plan.
Actually, a good many crimes are prevented daily just by the presence of firearms. If you were a criminal, or deranged and wanted to harm as many people as possible, would you go to an area where literally hundreds of people could also have guns, or would you go where nobody can legally have guns? Most criminals are not stupid, nor are they particularly suicidal. Occasionally you do run into someone dumb or crazy enough to deliberately strike where people are armed. It's not often though.
This is a bit off base. Not saying it is wrong. But you need to look at your typical school shooter here: metal issues. Not really a prior criminal looking to snatch a purse or knock over a liquor store. Typically social outcasts. In the case of the criminal as it is defined for our purposes... yes, he is stupid... or should we say metally disturbed. At any rate, he is a few rounds shy of a full box so to speak. They are, also in the case of our school shooters, EXTREMELY suicidal. I'm not going to dive into the psychology of these guys, but basically they are control freaks. They feel like they cannot control anything in their lives. Same sort as kids who cut themselves... its a method of maintaining control... they control their pain. These school shooters feel power and control by playing God and striking out againest innocent people, and ultimately themselves. They are quite often too afraid of death to commit suicide, so they have to do something that pushes them over the edge... some choose "suicide by cop" which would ultimately happen anyway in most of these cases... but again, they long for control and take their own lives.
I submit that the presence of firearms or the possibility of presence would at least help as a deterrent. If the deterrant wasn't enough, at least we probably won't have to see 30+ people dying in an incident because police weren't able to get there in time.
I agree with that.
I forgot to address the prevention versus response. I do understand what you mean, in that it would probably be better to prevent something from occurring versus having people ready to put the shooter down after he/she starts. One problem with prevention is the economics and simple scale of the situation. I don't think the majority of people would be willing to submit to a daily search of their person or their effects (bag, etc), even if by metal detector. Do you know how many entries and exits these buildings have? They would have to either close a bunch of entry/exit doors permanently, or put metal detectors and armed guards at each and every entrance and exit of each and every building on campus. The economics of the situation are going to prohibit that.
Something tells me that the NCAA will buy metal detectors before opening up to concealed carry. I think most people would feel more comfortable with that alternative, I agree that it would become tedious. Honestly, I tend to side with you this one Tim. How many of us are sick of searches and what not at the airport (I am), right after 911 we were screaming for everyone to be searched.. spare no one... take Grandmas walker away and cut it open to check for C4... 7 years later and we just want to get on the damn plane already. And not only would economics be a problem at universities with metal detectors and blocking off entries/exits... fire code... talk about a catch-22.
Now the school might try a few "feel good" measures that don't really help anybody's safety, but short of armed guards and metal detectors at every door in every building on campus, they cannot sufficiently guarantee nobody will get in there with a weapon. As a result of that, the only reasonable solution is to allow individuals to be responsible for our own self defense.
I agree. Heck maybe you convinced me. Or at least gave me enough to think about to settle my opinion.