Cougar,

I apologize if my commentary seemed "inflamatory", it was not meant to be so.

I did not feel anyone in this thread was "putting down" Bowtech. However, it is a personal pet-peeve of mine when people base their opinions on second-hand knowledge, or intangibles.

This type of non-sense goes on quite frequently both on the hunting boards I frequent as well as boards for other hobbies I engage in.

When I see the potential for a unjustified flame-flest I often get snippy.

JeffB

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
OK..here's some facts..
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JeffB,

Most of what you said are opinions, not facts. Facts are something that would be proven by independent testing between all or most bows out there. I appreciate your opinions, but I have my own that are based on shooting the bows. Even the speed thing doesn't seem to be proven. I hear a lot of guys shooting Renegade bows, claiming the fastest bow title. Claiming those 9 things to be facts, doesn't make it so. Number 1 may be a fact (though I haven't seen the independent testing), the others are unquestionably, just opinions.

What one person likes in a bow, another may dislike. If it's not important for you to have a quiet, shock free bow for hunting, that's fine, but I'll make that decision for myself when choosing my bow. If I'm looking for a high brace height bow, with the least amount of hand shock, then Bow tech isn't going to fit the bill, at least not for me, not yet.

If this post comes across as a little harsh, it's because it's in response to yours which appeared to be rather abrasive towards anyone with an opinion that didn't agree with yours.

SA,

While I agree that there is some opinion thrown in there, each of my points starts w/ fact.

I did not deny that BT's had more shock and recoil, please read carefully.

Speed figures don't lie. I've owned and shot enough bows to know that as a line of bows, BT's are as fast as it gets. Certainly some brands might have some bows that are equal but not faster, and the majority slower.

If you wish to refute the factual information I posted, please let's discuss.

JeffB

Matt,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I would expect much more recoil and shock from the little Havoctec at the same specs just because it's smaller and quite a bit lighter <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

...you are just danglin' that bait in front of my nose...aren't you? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I will make you a deal. It is my understanding that the Patriot doesn't go up to a 31 inch draw length, right?

If you get Bowtech to make it in a 31 inch model then I will trade in my Havoctec and get one. Deal?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

OK, I’ll clarify and try to separate the opinion.

1)at IBO arrow weights Bowtech’s are the fastest line of bow out there, pound for pound, draw to draw, and brace to brace. 2)I’ve seen BT models as well as many others shot in a machine. They are as accurate as you are. While this is true of most well put together bows, I have seen some that did not shoot as accurately in a machine. I also made reservation for proper set-up and comfort.

3)Bare bow, Bowtech’s have more shock and recoil when shooting equal poundage and arrow weights than much of the competition.

4)They are of high quality construction. They have tighter tolerances than many manufacturers in the industry. If direct visual comparison is not enough, by all means pull out the micrometers. While I am no engineer myself, the ex-owner of the pro-shop I frequent is,as well as the owner of the shop I used to run. They have taken them apart and compared to them other high dollar brands he carried, I have witnessed this first-hand w/ several brands/models of bows, including HCA, XI, Oregon, McPherson, Bowtech, Mathews, Darton, Hoyt, PSE, Mountaineer, Proline, Alpine, ProSport (now champion),Golden Eagle and Bear/Jennings. Whether these tolerances make the difference, that seems to be opinion from engineer to engineer.


5)Bowtech uses it’s own patented cam technology. I suspect they pay Jennings a commission for use of the onecam patent (assuming the patent has not expired), PF cams/ Sandtraps, etc are patents they own, not license from someone else. Most manufactures license the onecam patent as well as the Max/SL patents from Mathews.

6)BT did address every major complaint they had in 2000 for their 2001 bows. Problems were either eliminated entirely, or greatly lessened.


7)Nowhere do you see BT claiming that their models will not go out of tune or that they require no tuning. Where any claim might be refuted due to variance in equipment (such as speed) they give a set of parameters that the absolutely will hold to, they don’t leave the factory if they will not.

8)Admittedly is more opinion than fact. However I think it’s safe to say that most people would agree that opinions based on intangibles, or hearsay are worth discarding, at least I would hope so.

9)Is most certainly fact. If you have any industry experience you will know about this. Every instance I mentioned is now fact.

JeffB

I have to agree with Cougar Mag - nothing exceptional about the bow that would make me buy it. I can't see any justification for all of the recept hype. But if the bow feels and shoots good for people, buy all means buy it and use it.

Jeff,

This is the statement I was responding to when I said If you didn't want a quiet and shock free bow, that's your choice, not mine. I don't want more noise or hand shock in my hunting bow. Simple as that.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
3)...For hunting setups and barring any physical problem, the point is moot. Animal attitude is far more important to curb string jumping than lack of bow noise...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Your latest list of 9 facts are far more factual and a lot less abrasive. Thanks,

SA,

Whitetails will always hear a bow go off assuming that high winds or some other obstructing noise is not a factor.

Quiet bows do not solve the problem, and neither does extra speed..hence my statement regarding animal attitude.

I've shot enough deer w/ &quot;loud&quot; bows, and had enuff jump &quot;quiet&quot; bows to prove to me that there is no conclusive evidence that having a quiet bow will reduce the number of animals string jumping. However there is conclusive evidence (based on the thousands of animals shot each year with them) that louder bows kill deer like no-ones business as will the quiet ones.


Also, I did not dispute the fact that some folks like the absolute least amount of shock, recoil and noise, who doesn't? My argument is that when set-up for a hunting situation and w/ similar speeds they are quite competitive or better noise and recoil wise,and you will get more K.E to boot. Shooting a bare bow in a pro-shop w/ no stabilizer, silencers etc. does not always produce an accurate representation of the final picture.

My &quot;latest list&quot; does nothing other than narrow down & clarify my original statement. I stick by my original statement to the letter, abrasive or not. The last paragraph in my original statement was purely in jest, apparently I forgot the smiley face.

All,

I apologize to any and all if I seemed abrasive: no malice was intended nor were my statements directed to anyone in particular(though it seems it may have been taken that way).

By all means let's continue the discussion positively.

JeffB

Jeff, we'll probably have to disagree on the value of quietness in a hunting bow. I think that a deer hearing a whisper like sound at 25 yards is not going to react nearly as much as it will to a loud crack, that is produced by many bows. Bow Tech may even be in the acceptable range here, but the hand shock is not, for me. Until someones comes out with proof to the contrary, I'll continue to prefer as quiet a bow as I can get that fits my other requirements.

At this time, I've determined that my next hunting bow must meet the following conditions: (1) ATA of 33-38&quot; (2) brace height of 8&quot; or higher (3) very quiet, low shock bow.

At this point the closest I've found to meeting this is the Mathews SQ2, but it's shorter than I'd prefer. Still looking...

Hey Straightarrow...have you shot the Reflex Denali yet? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>