Pike, I think they are somewhat related. If you have an overpopulated herd with all younger bucks, they're absorbing all the stress. If you add a mature buck or two into the mix in essence their "biting the bullet" for the younger guys. Are the young bucks still gonna run their tails off, sure; but across the board I think they'll be exposed to less stress with some big boys around.

I would say yes and no, mostly yes. The only no being what you just recently said about does producing the highest number of offsrping when they're 3-5 yrs old. I always thought once a doe reach maturity she started to have less fawns on average (I could be remembering wrong). The part you said about fawns coming into estrous (they have the potential to reproduce once they hit 80 lbs), being the reason you haven't seen a decline in the length of your rut or fawning season was spot on, it makes perfect sense; this would also be another reason your maybe seeing lower fawn recruitment, b/c doe fawns will almost always give birth to 1 fawn. There's one thing you didn't mention that is good news for you based on the way you described your current herd. On average, does will typically give birth to the largest antlered offspring in their first few years of life (less than or equal to 3 yrs.).

i definitely feel that all bucks go through stress during the rut, and that having dominant mature bucks around wont eliminate stress on immature bucks. I have seen many immature bucks chasing does and fighting with eachother in NY, NJ, and in multiple areas here in PA where I know there are mature bucks around. Near my house I know I have at least two 4.5 year old bucks and one nasty tempered 3.5 year old who likes to fight everyone even if he knows he will get his butt kicked. I also have a lot of does in the area and overall too high of deer numbers. this year i have watched multiple 1.5 year old bucks square off and go at it for long periods of time, as well as chasing does around in the home turf of the older bucks. Having the older bucks there certainly hasnt stopped them from rutting and under going some kind of stress. I dont feel there is any true way to tell if having a dominant mature buck in a herd will decrease the testosterone or breeding related stess of younger bucks in all areas across the country. and i also dont think there is any true way to prove that dominant bucks will have less antler growth then inferior bucks in all areas but i feel that both arguements are justified and certainly could be true in many cases.

also i got a question dealing with birthing and the number of fawns a doe has. Many does in my area that are mature does that i guess to be 2.5 to 5.5 have only one fawn. Most i see have two fawns but there have been several that have had only one. and im not saying later in the year i see them with one fawn but ive seen several give birth and seen other fawns shortly after birth with only one fawn.

On the other hand there is one doe that we call gretchen that i know is at least 8 years old and she still had 2 fawns this year. I was very surprised to see her have two fawns. She was not in good shape this year(very skinny in the hind quarters and along her spine) and i have not seen her lately to see if she is still alive but i watched her all throughout the summer until the beginning of october and her fawns(both button bucks) seemed to be very healthy. Is that unnormal for a doe of that age to still be giving birth to two fawns and do you think these bucks will have inferior racks to fawns birthed from does in the 2-5 age class?

Its not a defotmity, or skeletal injury; it a skin injury that aided in identification every year. It never appeared to affect his physical growth (he dressed 197 this year), so I feel it was negligible.


Yea, I completely forgot. I would say yea that's pretty consistent with my understanding of a whitetails breeding ecology. I talked to Randy last summer. We really didn't discuss this topic, however. I was more interested in hearing about the recent GPS study they did that found bucks were taking excursions; and that home range size does not seem to be related to age whatsoever.

The fact that bucks of all age classes breed, and that a buck dosen't monopolize breeding could be used to support my point.

Assume theres an over populated area with 40 does and 20 bucks. Each will breed 2. Assume there is 40 does and 40 bucks, each will breed one. More bucks = more bodies absorb the stress; therefore, each individual experiences less stress.

I guees this is my way to sum it up. I think social stress from overpopulation and breeding stress are related. Here's the scenario; we have an over populated herd, with a limited number of antlered bucks. Those bucks are getting stressed because there's so many doe (see the reasearch article I posted on the previous page concerning social stress). To alleviate that stress we can do two things: increase the number of bucks so that stress gets shared by a larger number of individuals,. and/or reduce the number of does so that less have to be bread by the limited number of bucks.

Phew, I think that was the best way I've explained my thought process so far....Did that make more sense thean the way I've been explaining it?

I've been told a doe will give birth to her best "antler endowed" sons when she is either 2 or 3. I have no idea how much bigger their earlier offspring are, or why, just that it is usually the case.

The quote I posted from Kip Adams. QDMA, directly refutes your original premise that the presence of older dominant buck suppresses breeding by 1.5 buck and those reduces stress.

One could also make the case that because young buck still compete for the right to breed even in a herd with a balanced age structure, that improving the B/D ratio would increase breeding stress because there would be more buck competing to breed fewer doe.


In any case there is no evidence that breeding stress had a negative effect on the health of our herd, either with the old DMP or the new DMP. Breeding stress simply is a non-issue in a state where we harvest 80% of our legal buck.

From what I have seen with my own eyes I agree 100%!! The closer the buck to doe ratio is the higher the stress level is for bucks in every age class. Pike

You need to go back and re-read my post, without putting words in my mouth. I said the presence of a mature buck will suppress the testosterone output in immature deer, that is a fact that has been proven scientifically in captive herds.

As I stated before, you have the opinion that stress will increase when there's more competition. I have the opinion that there's more stress when there's a smaller buck population in an over populated herd, because those bucks have to do a lot more breeding. We're hypothesizing as to which factors cause MORE stress, and currently theres no scientific work proving or disproving that only one of us is right.

There is, however, evidence proving that social stresses in an overpopulated herd reduces antler growth in bucks. So to say stress is not a factor in PA is an oversight on your part, IMO.