glew22

I know this is a very long read but IMO it’s worth it. I also realize it may fit better into other forums, but I ask that it be given the opportunity to remain here because I feel the content suits the audience, and it will get more exposure here.

I feel this is a topic that warrants more attention and consideration than it is given. My goal to open an educated conversation, so that we can share experiences and knowledge; my goal IS NOT to turn this into a debate over passing bucks and whether qdm is right or wrong. I will provide three examples supporting my claim that breeding stress is a significant limiting factor in antler growth.

The first example is research conducted by John Ozaga at MSU. It was put forth to me as a story, so that is how I will pass it along….There were two bucks a 7.5 and a 5.5. The 7.5 was the dominant breeder; the 5.5 did not participate at all in breeding related activity (chasing/fighting/breeding). The 7.5 was not this biggest in either body or antlers (he was the third largest in both); the 5.5 was by far bigger in both body and antler size. The researchers measured the testosterone of both bucks (testosterone level is positively correlated to dominance rank), the 7.5s was through the roof, whereas the 5.5 had barely enough to harden antler. They removed the 7.5 from the population, and within 1 day the 5.5 assumed breeding dominance in the herd (keep in mind that until that point he had not participated at all). The researchers measured his testosterone again and it was through the roof. This is where is gets interesting….When the two bucks were 3.5 and 1.5, respectively, they were in a fight, and it almost resulted in the death of the yearling. It appears that he never forgot that fight, so long as the other buck was present, he avoided all breeding activity; instead of chasing does, fighting, and breeding, he devoted all of his time and energy to nutrition and building his body (keep in mind that nutrition can be ruled out as the limiting factor in this example because the 7.5 had access to the same quality and quantity of nutrition). The researched concluded that because the 5.5 “opted out” of breeding activity and focused on building his body, he was able to reach his genetic potential in regards to antler growth.

The second example is one that I have observed first hand for the last 3 years. Over said time frame I have watched two bucks grow from 3.5 to 5.5. “Jordan” (high rack) has always been dominant to “Whitey” (wide rack). These bucks lived in a very overpopulated area (over 100 dpsm). The dominant buck, Jordan, was an eight point as a 3.5. At 4.5 he returned as a 7 point, and stayed a 7 point as a 5.5. Whitey was a clean 8pt as a 3.5; and was a 9pt when he was both 4.5 and 5.5. From 3.5-4.5 Jordan added about 10 inches to his gross score; Whitey added about 20. From 4.5-5.5, Jordan appeared to decline slightly in gross score; Whitey added another 6-8 inches. I believe the reason Jordan did not exhibit the same growth rate as Whitey was because as the dominant buck, he was exposed to higher levels of breeding stress…why? We first have to rule out alternatives. Genetics: I do not feel Jordan was limited by genetics because he was an 8pt as a 3.5, therefore, it was clearly within his genetic potential to produce an 8pt rack, however, he did not do so at maturity (4.5). Genetics can also be eliminated because I have been informed that no buck (I’m sure there are exceptions don’t crucify me for this) in my area of PA, only has the genetic potential to only produce 115” antlers at maturity (Jordan netted 115” when he was shot this year). In essence, there is nothing wrong with PA genetics (a wild PA doe was the great-grandmother of goliath, the famed biggest buck ever…until very recently I believe). Nutrition: I also do not feel nutrition was a limiting factor because both bucks had access to supplemental feed during the critical winter stress period; also, Jordan’s dominance ensured that when they were together, he always ate before Whitey (obviously they weren’t always together). An additional piece of evidence suggesting breeding stress was the cause of Jordan’s lack luster antler growth was the fact that he lost his antlers around Dec. 28th last year. Early antler casting has been proven to result from either: a widespread mast failure in an area dependent upon mast, or significant exposure to high levels of breeding stress and a deteriorated physical condition. Again, Jordan had access to supplemental feeding so the widespread mast failure can be ruled out. I will post pictures of both bucks at 3.5, 4.5, and 5.5.

My third example comes from the experience of one of the HN hunters this year. He was lucky enough to harvest a 4.5 yr old with his bow. This buck grossed 116” and had about 10” in deductions. About a week after this buck was shot, another buddy of mine hunted out of the same treestand. He witnessed 44 deer pour out into the field in front of him. 43 of those deer were doe; the lone buck was a 1.5 4pt. My buddy said “from the minute that buck entered the field about a half hour before dark, he was running non-stop scent checking every doe in the field.” So why do I think it was breeding stress and not another factor that limited this buck’s antler growth? We have already discussed genetics and I assure you a lot of biologists believe it has little effect in regards to being a limiting factor, there’s usually something else at play. Nutrition: these deer had access to some of the best nutrition I’ve ever seen. Within 300 yards of the stand this buck was shot from there is a 150 acre field of corn/soybeans. Also within 300 yards is a lush 4 acre field of clover, adjacent to another 4 acre field of brassicas. Nutrition was likely not the limiting factor in this instance.

I’ll leave you with a few facts that have been put forth to me by reputable biologists: a yearling buck can experience enough breeding stress during his first rut that he will never recover antler wise (not suggesting his antlers don’t get bigger, just that his growth potential was limited by the stress he experienced that first year). Just the presence of a mature buck can reduce the testosterone output of immature bucks (forcing them to do what they should as immature animals, build their bodies). In essence, the presence alone of a mature buck will shield immature bucks from experiencing significant amounts of stress, thus allowing them to reach their genetic potential.

glew22

Here's Whitey at 3, 4, and 5.

jnrbronc

I'm not buying this! This theory says that all young bucks will never develop into their potential due to "stress memory". Think about it, all young bucks are subordinate in one way or another in a herd environment. If this "theory" holds, how would any buck every achieve trophy status? So the solution, according to this theory, is to shoot everything over 1.5 yrs?

Quote:

Just the presence of a mature buck can reduce the testosterone output of immature bucks (forcing them to do what they should as immature animals, build their bodies). In essence, the presence alone of a mature buck will shield immature bucks from experiencing significant amounts of stress, thus allowing them to reach their genetic potential.

Well, this statement is exactly opposite of what was offered earlier. Which is it?

My experience leads me to believe that dominant bucks establish a territory and lesser bucks go to surrounding areas where they try to establish dominance, thus avoiding continual hierarchical battles.

Then again, I'm not a "wildlife biologist".

glew22

That statement was provided to me as a fact. I should have noted that it is describing a very EXTREME example of what CAN happen. This situation rarely happens in the wild, but the research proved that is CAN happen. In regards to how would a buck reach trophy status...note that I said his antlers will definitely get bigger, its just that he won't reach his genetic potential (ex: a buck is 120" at maturity, when he may have been 140" had he not been stressed, thats just a hypothetical example). And lastly, shooting everything over 1.5 would be the worst thing to do because the yearlings would experience more stress without the older bucks around to shield them from it...look further down for a continuation.

I'm not sure which statement you are refferring to from earlier. This is a factual statement backed up by reasearch...."The presence of a mature buck will reduce the testosterone levels of immature bucks in the herd." Please show me the other statement that made you belive I was contradicting myself. What this suggests is that having mature bucks in a herd has health benefits for immature bucks in that herd, because they have lower testosterone outputs, and participate less in breeding activity....These health benefits translate to increased antler growth down the road.

J Pike

glew I have to disagree, I have been scrictly managing 3,250 acres and been part of a QDM co-op of over 8500 acres for 10 years now and have acheived a perfect buck to doe ratio, and have not noticed any decrease in inmature buck breeding activity even though during our first year we saw or got pics of only 6 bucks that were older than 1.5 years of age. In my opinion our in mature bucks participate in the rut just as much in year 10 as they did in year 1 even though we now have bucks dying of old age. The other thing that has shocked me is that the fawning period hasnt gotten any shorter in length over the years. Pike

J Pike

Glew also you state that the bucks in Your area of PA. only have the genetics to produce bucks with 115 inch racks. That statement is not true. The fact is the bucks in your area have the same genetic potential to produce racks as big as my area of PA. which is York co. my area of OH. and also bucks in states such as IL.Pike

glew22

Hmm, you raise good points and I can't argue with your observations. You would still think that the extent to which the yearlings are participating is less than it was prior, but maybe you're right. The fawning period remaining the same definitely surprises me, I'll pass the info along to my superiors, and let you know how they respond.

I'm going to attach a picture of Whitey as a 2.5, we would have scored in the low 80s. The other pictures will be several 2.5s that I have been watching this year. I can say this with certainty, my 2.5s are ALOT bigger then they were before. Could it be that they had better nutrition then Whitey...possibly. I still believe that in some way they were shielded from stress by Whitey and Jordan.

As a sidenote...Whitey turned into a 9pt grossing in the 130s by maturity. Imagine what these new 2.5s will look like if they make it to 4.5...they dwarf him as a 2.5.

Thanks for the response pike.

glew22

No no no my fault...clarification...they DO NOT have genetics to max out at 115". I was trying to say that those genetics (maxing out at 115") don't exist. If a buck is maxing out at 115" in my area it means something's wrong.

J Pike

glew in my opinion when you have a perfect buck to doe ratio and a higher % of your buck population in older age classes, breeding behavior dramaticly increases for every age class, stress from the rut increases for every age class, the intensity of the rut dramaticly increases and natural mortality due to breeding behavior increases for every age class. When you bring your buck to doe ratio in line and also increase the % of your buck population in the older age classes you create alot more competition for the bucks in every age class which causes the bucks to be on their feet non stop searching for available doe's aswell as increase the amount of fighting aswell, this causes your buck population to be in poorer condition after the rut than they normally would be. All you have to do is look at my trail cam pics to see how many of our bucks from every age class have broken racks, which has dramaticly increased over the years as our buck to doe ratio got closer together and the % of mature bucks in our buck population increased. Pike

glew22

The only part of your statement I would disagree with is that stress from the rut increases for every age class. Imagine having 10 doe and 1 buck; and having 10 doe and 10 bucks. 10 to 1 would result in a 2nd and possibly 3rd rut...a much longer window. I feel that there would be a lot more stress in that scenario that in the herd with 10 doe and 10 bucks, because the stress would be absorbed by a lot more individuals. Another factor at play is they increase in stress due to fighting with more bucks in a balanced herd. You would think that a lot of the dominance hierarchy would get sorted out through posturing and body language, but as you eluded to that does not seem to be the case. On of the 2.5s I posted broke a g1 on nov 29-30...I would think that fights ending up in broken points wouldn't be happening that late.