formula1

Gary:

Thanks for your input. Your dealer that I purchased a pack from spoke very highly of Slick Trick heads as well. Honestly, I bought them to test in my new bow on your dealer' s glowing recommendation. He told me all of his customers who use them get perfect arrow flight and great blood trails as you have said. He even has some shooting them with crossbows at 330 fps. Since I just purchased a new bow that' s above 300 fps and I don' t know how my Thunderheads will shoot at that speed (and I hate mechanicals), I decided to try the Slick Tricks. Actually, before I saw the Slick Tricks, I actually had penciled out a similar design (I am an engineer), but it was a three-blade design with a little more tip in front of the blade. Let me assure you that one or two negative opinions will not necessarily sway me one way or the other. I know that we bowhunters are a peculiar bunch because we love the sport and the responsibility it requires to our quarry.

Huntmup:

Please don' t feel bad about your opinion, especially in the light of how you presented it, as openly and honestly as you could. You could have said ' Slick Tricks are the worst heads made' without adding honest discussion, pictures and facts. You didn' t and that I respect. We bowhunters want to be sure of our equipment, and I can understand your loss of confidence in the light of what you presented. Personally, I hate mechanicals all because of one live deer test and one very bad experience, even though I know many folks swear by the one I used. I won' t name the head, but suffice it to say I had to use a Thunderhead 100 to complete the job. It' s confidence in our equipment that is most important!! We work too hard to get that shot of a lifetime ruined with a bad broadhead. I understand!!!

5 shot

Huntmup, don' t feel bad. These are your honest feelings as best I can tell. I don' t know you personaly, and I can' t speak for your motives for starting this debate. I get the feeling you had a bad experience with the heads and you wanted to at least make people aware of what happend to you. You layed out your case, and presented yourself in a polite manor. I do not question or doubt your findings. I can only say that in my testing ( which we all know is not real world field conditions) I have not found the problems you have. I have spoken to 10 or so people that have used the heads on game, all with good results. Of course every setup is differnt as is every shot. You had some problems, others have not. This debate can be about any head. Infact a while back we had some discussion about Muzzy heads. Most love them, but a few hated them, all for there own reasons. I would much rather you post about your results than to keep quiet. Things like this make me question my findings and search deeper to find out what I can do to improve my reports and add to the debate.
I have spoken with Gary several times via email. He also seems very sincere and believes in his products. I don' t blame or condem him one bit for defending his broadheads. That fact that I would tend to agree with him on this matter doesn' t mean that your position is wrong. You layed your case out very well. It will be up to the individual bowhunter to buy a pack of heads and test them personaly, as well as read this debate in order to decide if the slick tricks are for them.

c903

huntmup
huntmup

Regarding your comment:

You have no reason to feel as you say you do. Evaluation of any product is best when the results of performance, reliability, and durability is obtained from when the product is actually used in accordance with purpose of design and under the real conditions the product is proclaimed to perform with particular and acceptable results. Shooting through steel barrels, rubber tires and plywood might be impressive and entertaining, However, I believe most bowhunters do not hunt steel barrels, rubber tires, and plywood.

I want to hear from people like you; someone who has used the product and presents their experience and the results with the product as you have, and in the manner that you did, which I consider exemplary. I do not lay total credence -sometimes not at all, on manufacturer hype, or that which any person or organization that is in the manufacturer' s corner has to say.

Any projectile is subject to deflection (ricochet); some more than others depending upon certain conditions, which definitely includes the angle that the projectile is making contact, the type of surface(s) being impacted, and the design and material of the projectile.

I am not an engineer, nor do I have a degree in physics or aeronautics; However, I am learned and experienced in certain matters regarding penetrative results and interior/exterior deflection (paths) of various projectiles in and on certain material, including living tissue. I do have a good mechanical aptitude, good reasoning ability, and common sense…although my reasoning and common sense has, at times, been misguided or absent. Additionally, I have hunted with a bow for a very long time, and have used a multitude of different types of " fixed blade" broadheads.

My experience is an assisting factor, but common sense alone tells me that projectiles that have a high or higher profile appendage, such as a wing on a broadhead, can have a greater tendency to deflect at a particular angle, than a projectile with a low or lower profile appendage making contact at the same angle.

This phenomenon (deflection) and the possibility of occurrence would be increased or decreased by 1: the height of the blades, 2: the degree of angle of the blades (severe or gradual), 3: the piercing design of the tip (puncture or cut-on-contact), 4: the tip shape (cone or Trocar ), and 5: where the blades are set in the projectile ( in this case a ferrule).

I can easily theorize; 1: a broadhead having high profile blades with a severe angle from apex to base, 2: set too close to the front of a short tip, 3: a tip that penetrates more by punching than cutting, will most likely have more of a tendency to deflect off of certain surfaces at a certain angle; than a: a broadhead having blades with a lower profile, b: having a gradual degree of angle from apex to base, and c: set back from the tip.

If the tip of a broadhead is entering at a angle that allows the apex of the blade to contact a hard surface, -such as a rib bone, before the tip can dig in and start cleaving to/within flesh muscle, bone, etc; it does not take a rocket scientist to explain how deflection can occur. Therefore, I do believe that high profile blades set too close to the tip can, in all likelihood, have a greater tendency to deflect at an angle of penetration that a lower profile blade set back further from the tip might not.

Do I believe that " Slick Trick" broadheads are an overall bad performing broadhead? No, I do not! Do I believe that the design could cause the broadhead to have a greater tendency to deflect then another blade with a lower profile and longer point? Yes, I do! Will I use the " Slick Trick?" No, I won' t! Was the information I have read in this thread, and " huntmup' s" thread responsible for my decision? Somewhat! I like the head I presently use and have had great success and experience with the heads, as others I hunt with have had. Was " huntmup' s" thread credible, informative, and instructive? Most definitely was!

The information " huntmup" and others have provided is what makes sites like this (HNC) a valuable source of information. You get many sides of a story to help make a decision; not just the manufacturer' s/dealer' s hype.

Tell me that there are hunting projectiles of a certain design that will never deflect, or that a particular design cannot have a greater tendency to deflect than any other design, I will tell you to talk to my hand because my face ain' t listening!

Oldhootowl

I don' t know about manufacturer hype. The quotes I posted are from average guys and dealers with no reason for bias. They represent the everyday opinion I hear from people who have used the heads. I am going to post those and a few more shortly on my website. Several of the quotes I got off forums such as these. I guarantee you I am not hearing of weird deflection problems, just comments like the PA guy I mentioned. If there was a problem I could have easily changed the head this year, and would have. What would you do if you were me? Listen to ALL of my dealers who were adamant that I not change the design, who have sold thousands of packs and used them themselves, or ignore my dealers and change them based on an internet post? I will have to go with the wisdom of my dealers, if you ever manufacture a broadhead you can do differently if you choose.

c903

Oldhootowl

If I recall correctly; in " huntmup' s thread, or as you put it: …some Internet post, " huntmup" was not addressing you directly, and was not using the thread to appeal to you to change the design of the " Slick Trick," Nor do I recall that he sounded as though he had a Viagra for you, your company, and/or the broadhead, and was attempting to rally the masses to boycott your product. I do not recall " huntmup," or anyone, asking you to come here, read the thread, and change your broadhead design as you have implied was the objective of the thread.

He apparently had some questionable and repeated results when using the " Slick Trick," and believed the results and his suspicions (hypothesis) were worthy of putting out for others to read, see, and judge for themselves. I believe that " huntmup" presented a very good case. He was quite detailed in his report, and provided some very good evidentiary photos.

Most of all, although he could have easily said that he was convinced your product has a serious design flaw, that the broadhead was a piece of crap, and beseeched others not to purchase the " Slick Trick," he did not. He walked right down the middle.

You might not like controversy regarding your product, but your permission is not needed.

You... do not decide whether or not there will be controversy about your product, you... do not have the final authority to determine if the controversy is warranted and valid, you... do not choose where the controversy will occur, you... do not decide who can be involved in the debate should controversy occur, you... do not decide who shall have interest, and you... do not decide whether or not anyone shall conclude that the information that " huntmup" presented has merit, or does not have merit.

You want readers to validate your case, but totally ignore " huntmup' s" case. You said that ... " The quotes I posted are from average guys and dealers with no reason for bias. They represent the everyday opinion I hear from people who have used the heads."

First: I do not know if " huntmup is (just) an average guy, or a dealer of anything. However, he is -or was, a user of your product, and he too has right to have, as you say, " quotes." Second: If a person uses a particular product, he or she will be biased in some manner and to some degree, for or against, based on their experience with the product. To say that someone who uses your product, likes your product, and praises your product -especially in writing, …" has no reason for bias," is ridiculous.

You say that you have dealers who stock your product, have sold thousands of packs of your product, have, themselves, used your product, and have been adamant that you not change your design. That is good and carries some weight. However, what you present as evidence is " marketing testimonials." What " huntmup" presented is his side based on repeated use, backed by photos, and in person….albeit in an Internet post under a " User ID," but present and able to respond to questions and comments.

The bow shop in my locale carries products that are good, and products that are inferior to other products. Just because the shop carries a particular product, does not guarantee quality and performance. Stores of any kind often carry a variety of similar products that appeal to as many customer preferences and affordable money as is possible.

What does " thousands" of packs of the " Slick Trick" broadheads being sold confirm? That the " Slick Trick" does not have a design flaw that increases the possibility of deflection at a particular angle? I think not.

How many bowhunters are not aware that deflection can occur, or that if deflection did occur it was possibly caused by a design flaw in the broadhead? How many hunters are so joyous that they killed and recovered a deer they never gave a second thought to the path of the arrow that occurred inside the deer? Is it possible that deer have been killed by " Slick Trick" heads that did deflect but the incident(s) was/were not reported?

You have the right to defend your product, and it is wise (good business) that you do. However, your failed attempt to discredit " huntmup' s" report by attempting to discredit " huntmup," and your insinuation that no one but a designer and manufacturer of a product has brains or insight, was repugnant and not good business. Personal/business reputation can supersede the quality of a product.

Oldhootowl

Excuse me 903, but anyone reading the entire posts on the subject will see that I only added information about Huntmup that was FACTUAL. I invite Huntmup to state that ANYTHING I said regarding his use of my heads is incorrect. His email to me that Slick Tricks were flying as badly that they were was so STRANGE that I hadn' t deleted it. NOBODY else has EVER experienced flight like that, even in an untuned bow. Go back and read that. ALL evidence must be considered to arrive at a reasonable conclusion, and that is what I have done. People on this forum are entitled to as much evidence on a subject as possible. You are welcome to arrive at whatever conclusion you want and post whatever you want, and I have the same right, as does everybody else, at least until the forum owner objects. I thought I had been rather polite, and if not I apologize. And I understand that there will be some people who pass on my product for whatever reason just like every other head out there, thats fine and expected in the grand scheme of things. I don' t understand how my last post got you so fired up though, it seemed straight to me. This is my last post on the subject, I just have too much to do. Shoot whatever makes you happy and take a good shot, THANKS GARY

Oldhootowl

P.S. I lied. One last message. I certainly hope he DIDN' T have a Viagra for me.

Capt Ray

My hunting partner and I tried them last season and both had very bad experiences wiht them. To keep this short. I had a very nice 8 pt, quartering away shot at less then 15 yards. A shot I have made over and over again. The arrow hit the deer as aimed but seemed to just slide forward on the deer and then bounced off. The deer ran under my stand and stopped about 20 yards away and licked a very superficial wound, then waked off blowwing and snorting. After inspecting the arrow. The broadhead had sheared off at the insert and only about an inch of fat and blood on the shaft. My partner had an almost identical encounter on a doe opening day. Some may use them and like them. I wont use them again.

Oldhootowl

That I will respond to Capt Ray. My heads have a reputation for toughness, but they aren' t completely indestructible. This makes about 7 heads I have heard of breaking last year, and that rate makes them comparable to the best sellers. Odd that it happened to both you and your partner. Please email me and tell me where you got them and when. Those heads must not have been right. Something I may have taken for granted is that people would lock them down tight with a broadhead wrench. The round ones like Bohning and others sell for a $1 or 2 work perfect. They are made to have a really tight lock fit. All heads need to be on tight at the insert joint for maximum strength. Also, spin the heads and if they don' t spin perfectly, rotate the washer a tad and lock down again and all my heads will spin. Not saying you didn' t, but I think I will put those instructions on my website for good measure. I only had one dealer who told me he refunded a pack to a customer for breakage, and I commended him on that and sent him a refund. The others considered it operator error hitting the " heart" of the shoulder blade. If you hit an animal in the heart of the shoulder blade, no arrow will penetrate, and you will not kill the animal and the odds are fair whatever you are using the arrow will bend or break or the broadhead will break. That energy has to go somewhere if the arrow is stopped in its tracks. You apparently didn' t do that, and it is certainly odd your head broke, perhaps a heat treat flaw in that head. Let me know, and give my your address and I will send you and your buddy a refund. THANKS GARY

Oldhootowl

By the way, everything I have told you is straight. I checked with dealers such as Halls Arrow in Manchester CT who bought hundreds of packs, and they told me they were firm believers in my heads. I specifically pressed them on deflection and they flat said no. They killed 3 bulls in Montana that they are supposed to send me video of. Shoot whatever you like and take a good shot, THANKS GARY