No More Small Bucks!
10-29-2008, 12:52 PM
#201
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central Minnesota
Posts: 9,445
RE: No More Small Bucks!
I'd love to put a 2.5 yr old 140" and a 5.5 yr old 120" in front of them and watch them **** their pants reaching for the bow to kill the youngin.
I'll probably never ever see a 140" 2.5 year old and If I did he'd get a pass from me. That's like leaving A million dollars In the bank collecting Interest. Only good things can happen with both scenarios of leaving them both be.
10-29-2008, 01:04 PM
#202
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Panhandle of Texas
Posts: 596
RE: No More Small Bucks!
When the QDM crowd just comes right out and says ....."I don't give a freakin flip about "genetics".....ALL I wanna do is kill bigger racked bucks".....
Then...I'll give them the time of day. When they throw "genetics" and "age structure", etc....I get turned off really quickly. The ONLY reason they want "age structure"....is that is usually means a bigger rack.
I'd love to put a 2.5 yr old 140" and a 5.5 yr old 120" in front of them and watch them **** their pants reaching for the bow to kill the youngin.
Then...I'll give them the time of day. When they throw "genetics" and "age structure", etc....I get turned off really quickly. The ONLY reason they want "age structure"....is that is usually means a bigger rack.
I'd love to put a 2.5 yr old 140" and a 5.5 yr old 120" in front of them and watch them **** their pants reaching for the bow to kill the youngin.
As far as as 2.5yo 140" vs a 120" 5.5yo. A lot of factors would come into play in that split second called decision time. If it is late in the season, I would be more likely to let the 2.5 walk as compared to early in the season, when I would probably RATIONALIZE to myself, if not me, then my neighbor.
But yeah,I might shoot the the 2.5 over a 5.5 if he had the more desirable rack. I have no problem admitting that. I concede that this type action is not 100% consistent, but it is still more in line with accomplishing the stated objective(for me)for BIGGER RACKS than a "if its brown, its down" mentality.
If I hunted public land or properties that held fewer deer, I would probably have a different perspective than what I do, but since that is currently not the case, this is where I am TODAY.
10-29-2008, 01:22 PM
#203
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: South Central Wisconsin
Posts: 1,007
RE: No More Small Bucks!
PA,
Yes, I can compare hunting and fishing, bass and deer and the two are very very much a like in terms of growth and in terms of conservation. I was wrong to use theterm "lake" and you were wrong to use theterm "small pond". Those two terms may mean a closed system, like a high fence, which by the way can be compared with each other because the population and relative size of the fish/deer is mostly determined by genetics and food, not always by age.
If we want to compare the two, then a river system is the best method where like deer, the fish come and go as they please, and will only grow to their potential if they are allowed to live.
You mention it is ok to kill "some" young bucks, which I agree with 100% with kids, new hunters and the like. But what does "some" mean? To Hunter 1 it may mean2 young bucks to every 10 bucks on the property. If that was the case, I would probably agree that it isn't a big deal. To hunter 2 "some" may mean killing 8 bucks per 10. Andto hunter 3it means killing all 10 bucks because the law says I can. This is where the fishing example comes into play. Years ago everyone was like the third hunter, and our rivers and streams suffered. People complained because there were no fish, and/or no big fish. License prices went up, stocking was put into play, and still people would keep all that the law allowed. Finally some people like Ray Scott and others began to say, "Catch and Release". It was a slow movement at first, and people were more like hunter 2. Those people started to enjoy the fruits of their labor, and started to become more like hunters 1. That was fishing, this is deer hunting, we still have way too many #3 and 2's with not nearly enough #1's.
Yes, I can compare hunting and fishing, bass and deer and the two are very very much a like in terms of growth and in terms of conservation. I was wrong to use theterm "lake" and you were wrong to use theterm "small pond". Those two terms may mean a closed system, like a high fence, which by the way can be compared with each other because the population and relative size of the fish/deer is mostly determined by genetics and food, not always by age.
If we want to compare the two, then a river system is the best method where like deer, the fish come and go as they please, and will only grow to their potential if they are allowed to live.
You mention it is ok to kill "some" young bucks, which I agree with 100% with kids, new hunters and the like. But what does "some" mean? To Hunter 1 it may mean2 young bucks to every 10 bucks on the property. If that was the case, I would probably agree that it isn't a big deal. To hunter 2 "some" may mean killing 8 bucks per 10. Andto hunter 3it means killing all 10 bucks because the law says I can. This is where the fishing example comes into play. Years ago everyone was like the third hunter, and our rivers and streams suffered. People complained because there were no fish, and/or no big fish. License prices went up, stocking was put into play, and still people would keep all that the law allowed. Finally some people like Ray Scott and others began to say, "Catch and Release". It was a slow movement at first, and people were more like hunter 2. Those people started to enjoy the fruits of their labor, and started to become more like hunters 1. That was fishing, this is deer hunting, we still have way too many #3 and 2's with not nearly enough #1's.
10-29-2008, 04:28 PM
#204
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dover, Ohio. Tuscarawas county.
Posts: 827
RE: No More Small Bucks!
I agree, let the small bucks get bigger. I also agree with a beginner taking a small buck or a young hunter, but the older guys and experienced hunters who have taken bucks, we need to let them small bucks go. Last year, I didn't get a buck because no shooters walked in front of me. I could have shot a small buck, but I'm not a guy who will shoot a small buck to say I got a buck. I;m in my 8th year of deer hunting, and I'm already passing small bucks. Some of you guys have been hunting for 20 or more years and are still shooting small bucks.
What's the deal? Then you complain about never having any big bucks where you hunt.
I wonder why? Let me tell you, it's because you take all the small bucks out and they can't get bigger that way. LET THE SMALL BUCKS GROW!!!!!!
What's the deal? Then you complain about never having any big bucks where you hunt. I wonder why? Let me tell you, it's because you take all the small bucks out and they can't get bigger that way. LET THE SMALL BUCKS GROW!!!!!!
10-29-2008, 05:05 PM
#205
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,503
RE: No More Small Bucks!
Handles-
I am not sure where i suggested that any buck will grow beyond a 6pnt. If it sounded like that it certainly wasn't my intent. What i am asking is if tommorrow you woke up and whitetails suddenly no longer had antlers at all (no health reasons or etc. - just a hypothectical situation) would you give up deer hunting altogether? Would you still find the same sense of enjoyment in hunting?? The point i am trying to convey is - what man has the right to de-mean another for feeding his family or just being content with shooting any deer whether that be a button buck, doe or 135" ten point. I don't kill the first buck i see all the time but i am not going to let some ass-clown like dopler make me feel bad because i shot a buck smaller than is socially acceptable in his eyes. Hunting is about tradition, spending time with friends/family and personal enjoyment - not just the size of the animal shot.
Pa Trophy Man Are you suggesting that bucks don't get any bigger than the typical 6 point 1 1/2 year old?
How about if the reason why your bass are only 12" maximum in your local lake is because anything that is 12 1/4 is promptly killed? Would thateventually damper your enthusiam? Would it make you think of trying fishing in a different lake for a change, or perhaps asking the DNR to change bag/size limits on your lake? Would you ever want your son or daughteror perhaps grandchildren to have the oportunity to catch a fish larger than 12" if they would like to?
Our problem is that as a species we are greedy, we take take take, we want want want. Thank God for people likeRoosevelt.Very few people can see the big picture, can look at the past and present admit mistakes, and try to improve thing for themselves, others and the future.
How about if the reason why your bass are only 12" maximum in your local lake is because anything that is 12 1/4 is promptly killed? Would thateventually damper your enthusiam? Would it make you think of trying fishing in a different lake for a change, or perhaps asking the DNR to change bag/size limits on your lake? Would you ever want your son or daughteror perhaps grandchildren to have the oportunity to catch a fish larger than 12" if they would like to?
Our problem is that as a species we are greedy, we take take take, we want want want. Thank God for people likeRoosevelt.Very few people can see the big picture, can look at the past and present admit mistakes, and try to improve thing for themselves, others and the future.
10-29-2008, 09:43 PM
#206
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Henderson, KY
Posts: 1,760
RE: No More Small Bucks!
ORIGINAL: dukemichaels
This guys freakin' awesome!
I couldn't help but laugh.. and laugh.. and laugh.
Also.. which one of you is Derek?
Dopler.. you may never read this. But you are just as misinformed as any I have ever met or read on the subject of game management and whitetail genetics.
But kudos to you big man.. for giving me a good laugh today.
ORIGINAL: Dopler
Well, I read some of these posts, 18 pages overnight, pretty good response. Most of the responses were one liners from people who are part of the problem so I won't even dignify them with direct responses. Thiswill be my last post/visitto this thread as I'm going to have the last word here.Several of you had great responses. I guessthe X-factor that I did not consider is that some people are willing to go through life without succeedingso why should I expect that these type of people to raise the bar and their goals, to all of you, just go right on shooting the first spike buck you see.To those of you who agreed with me, congratulations, you get it, you're in the top 5% and you're a credit to the very fabric of game management. You're the type of people who are stewards of the land and will ensure that generations to come have quality managed game areas. By passing on samll bucks, you're helping the herd grow by ensuring that the best genetics advance as nature intended.There was a guy on there who said I've been kicked off other sites, wrong, this is the only one I've ever belonged to. He even gave my assumed name? How did you conjure this up? Anyway, read back through the responses and figure out who was more civil, meor theposts against mine?One guyleft a post on here sayingthat hedoes not want trophy bucks around in plentiful numbersbecause hunting them would be no fun because there would be too many. How cana guyargue withmentality like this?A few guys left comments saying that shooting does is worst than shooting bucks because doesgive birth to bucks. Before typing such nonsense, please at least take the time to google the concept of QDM and read thewritings of wildlife biologistsfor yourself onhow it improves the deer heard and also reduces crop damage.Uninformed people just make things up and write them, I don't get it? Derek, Guilty as charged, I am an arrogant SOB, what can I say,I'll always be that way I guess?I don't have the patience to *****foot around on issues. When I see a guy driving his fork horn around on his truck for three days in warm weather until the meat goes rancid whilestopping at bar to bar to brag aboutit makes my blood boil. Why wouldn't he do that with a doe? But, he won't because it's a BUCK as smallas it may be. This is the type of thing that we've all seen. This type of activityisan extreme example/mentality of whatmost people are defending here.The base argument for QDMis such a sound one that sometimes I can't believe that more people don't realize it--just because you shoot a small buck does not make you more of a manso why not just shoot a doe for meat? If you wait, you will harvest bigger bucks period! That's the base problem and it's ingrained in peopleand they can't change.I proudly announce my opinion and I really don't care who it bothers as it's fact.I won't ever let someone whoshoots little buckshunt on my land. There have been several good posts in response to this thread, yours being one of them Derek; however, 85% of the posts have been frompeoplewho will just never get itno matter how the argument is drafted and I only say that after reading through some of what was posted based on their merit (or lack thereof). Good luck to you too Derek, I can see you'rea man of reason even though you disagree with my methodology. Heck, I disagree withit myself from time to time.To all of the people who asked to see my deer over and over again, well, it does not really matter. I didn't come on here to brag, I came on to talk about factual proven game management which most of you dismissed because you're just misinformed. If you must know, I've taken 9 pope and young deer. I have not taken a buck in three years, I've taken 6 does in the last three years. If youinsist on seeing some of my deer, I have a camospace page, Englishbowhunter is my account name, go on there and friend request me and I'll answer you on Monday after I get back from my hunting trip and you'll be able to see some of my deer. Any of us hunters who own land or haveleases don't want guysthat shoot little bucks next to us. That'sjust a fact so deal with it I guess?Oh, I must say that I laughed at the guy who took a picture of his own ass and then put a hat andlips on it, it was creative at least butyou might want to think about laying off the cheese burgers for a while. If just one of you decide to raise up your goals this year and take the challenge then this post was worth while. Let the little1.5 year old bucksthathave nosurvival sensego and let them grow!
Well, I read some of these posts, 18 pages overnight, pretty good response. Most of the responses were one liners from people who are part of the problem so I won't even dignify them with direct responses. Thiswill be my last post/visitto this thread as I'm going to have the last word here.Several of you had great responses. I guessthe X-factor that I did not consider is that some people are willing to go through life without succeedingso why should I expect that these type of people to raise the bar and their goals, to all of you, just go right on shooting the first spike buck you see.To those of you who agreed with me, congratulations, you get it, you're in the top 5% and you're a credit to the very fabric of game management. You're the type of people who are stewards of the land and will ensure that generations to come have quality managed game areas. By passing on samll bucks, you're helping the herd grow by ensuring that the best genetics advance as nature intended.There was a guy on there who said I've been kicked off other sites, wrong, this is the only one I've ever belonged to. He even gave my assumed name? How did you conjure this up? Anyway, read back through the responses and figure out who was more civil, meor theposts against mine?One guyleft a post on here sayingthat hedoes not want trophy bucks around in plentiful numbersbecause hunting them would be no fun because there would be too many. How cana guyargue withmentality like this?A few guys left comments saying that shooting does is worst than shooting bucks because doesgive birth to bucks. Before typing such nonsense, please at least take the time to google the concept of QDM and read thewritings of wildlife biologistsfor yourself onhow it improves the deer heard and also reduces crop damage.Uninformed people just make things up and write them, I don't get it? Derek, Guilty as charged, I am an arrogant SOB, what can I say,I'll always be that way I guess?I don't have the patience to *****foot around on issues. When I see a guy driving his fork horn around on his truck for three days in warm weather until the meat goes rancid whilestopping at bar to bar to brag aboutit makes my blood boil. Why wouldn't he do that with a doe? But, he won't because it's a BUCK as smallas it may be. This is the type of thing that we've all seen. This type of activityisan extreme example/mentality of whatmost people are defending here.The base argument for QDMis such a sound one that sometimes I can't believe that more people don't realize it--just because you shoot a small buck does not make you more of a manso why not just shoot a doe for meat? If you wait, you will harvest bigger bucks period! That's the base problem and it's ingrained in peopleand they can't change.I proudly announce my opinion and I really don't care who it bothers as it's fact.I won't ever let someone whoshoots little buckshunt on my land. There have been several good posts in response to this thread, yours being one of them Derek; however, 85% of the posts have been frompeoplewho will just never get itno matter how the argument is drafted and I only say that after reading through some of what was posted based on their merit (or lack thereof). Good luck to you too Derek, I can see you'rea man of reason even though you disagree with my methodology. Heck, I disagree withit myself from time to time.To all of the people who asked to see my deer over and over again, well, it does not really matter. I didn't come on here to brag, I came on to talk about factual proven game management which most of you dismissed because you're just misinformed. If you must know, I've taken 9 pope and young deer. I have not taken a buck in three years, I've taken 6 does in the last three years. If youinsist on seeing some of my deer, I have a camospace page, Englishbowhunter is my account name, go on there and friend request me and I'll answer you on Monday after I get back from my hunting trip and you'll be able to see some of my deer. Any of us hunters who own land or haveleases don't want guysthat shoot little bucks next to us. That'sjust a fact so deal with it I guess?Oh, I must say that I laughed at the guy who took a picture of his own ass and then put a hat andlips on it, it was creative at least butyou might want to think about laying off the cheese burgers for a while. If just one of you decide to raise up your goals this year and take the challenge then this post was worth while. Let the little1.5 year old bucksthathave nosurvival sensego and let them grow!
I couldn't help but laugh.. and laugh.. and laugh.
Also.. which one of you is Derek?
Dopler.. you may never read this. But you are just as misinformed as any I have ever met or read on the subject of game management and whitetail genetics.
But kudos to you big man.. for giving me a good laugh today.
pg.8 post #73 is what hes referring to.
10-29-2008, 09:55 PM
#208
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chatham, Ohio
Posts: 8,834
RE: No More Small Bucks!
ORIGINAL: rookie51
I am not even going to read through 21 pages of bs. Shoot whatever the hell you want people.
I am not even going to read through 21 pages of bs. Shoot whatever the hell you want people.
I agree with ya brother
