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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Oh, you are gonna find out.
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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
GMMAT, If you lived in Texas or Southern California,the middle of Chicago, or plenty of other places,then lots of placesin PA close to public ground would be looking pretty damn good about now.I love the northwestern part of PA based on a couple trips thru their, and if i had the chance would trade it for southwest Ohio in a minute. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Sliverflicker "Crossbow Tests March 2005 Great Lakes Crossbow Co. -DURANGO The reason for conducting these tests was to establish a basis for performance measurements between modern crossbows and other hunting weapons, most specifically, modern compound bows. Given the movement to redefine crossbows as conventional archery tackle so as to allow their use during bowhunting-only seasons, it seemed appropriate to provide a means for comparison. Of particular interest was the accuracy potential of a rested crossbow at extended ranges. Crossbow manufacturers list velocity and pull weights, but I am not aware of any published accuracy expectations. In early March 2005 I obtained a Great Lakes Crossbow Co. Durango model crossbow in slightly used condition. While it does not have as high peak weight (165 pounds) as many of the “high performance” crossbows that peak at 175 pounds to 200 pounds, it does have a 17-inch power stroke, and overall, it’s velocity and kinetic energy ratings compare favorably with other modern crossbows. This crossbow has an overall weight of 8 ¼ lbs., 34-inch length without the stirrup, and very heavy two-piece limbs with an axle-to-axle length of 27 ¼ inches. It uses round cams, approximately 2 9/16 inches in diameter. It comes fitted with a 4 power, parallax adjustable scope with hand adjustable windage and elevation turrets. The trigger has a pull weight of over 7 pounds, with considerable creep and overtravel. While the crossbow does have a crossbolt safety, it can’t be engaged until after the crossbow is cocked and it is in an awkward location to operate safely. Five bolts were also provided. They were fitted with 100 grain screw-in target points and 5” vanes at a slight straight offset. The shafts are 2219 Easton aluminum, cut to 22 1/8 inches before inserts and had an average weight, with points, of 476 grains. Although as the shooter, I have no previous experience shooting crossbows, I do have considerable experience in competitive rifle shooting. The first test took place indoors on March 10th. A total of 4 bolts were shot before the cocking mechanism broke under pressure, causing minor damage and some trepidation on the part of the operator. The crossbow was rested across a stool with all 4 shots taken at 22 yards. The initial shot was used to adjust the sights and find a hard spot on the bales where the bolts wouldn’t pass completely through them, and then three shots were taken at the same point of aim. The first was taken then pulled. The second entered within ½ inch of the first bolt hole and then a third was shot, which hit right next to the second and almost exactly in the hole that the first was pulled from. As mentioned, the cocking winch broke at that point, but a three shot group of under ¾ inches was a pretty impressive start. After the winch was repaired I was back at the range on March 12th to shoot at longer distances. The crossbow was shot from a shooting bench with sandbags. I had shimmed the back of the scope .050 because I anticipated that the scope would run out of elevation adjustment before it could be held dead-on at the longer ranges I hoped to shoot it at. It turned out not to be necessary because even at 90 yards, the bolt sailed over the whole bale assembly. It was recovered but was bent badly due to impact with a tree. The shims came out. After four shots at 40 and 60 yards to get “on” the bales I moved to 90 yards and impacted below my aiming point. I then adjusted the scope to the bulls-eye and shot a four shot group with the four straight bolts I had remaining. The aiming point was a scrap of white paper. The first shot hit about 1 inch left of the paper, the second hit it, the third hit about 4 inches right and the final one, less than an inch right. The final 90-yard group was a horizontal string less than 5 inches across. Penetration was approximately 8 inches into frozen and practically new excelsior bales. Even though these results surprised me, I felt this crossbow was actually capable of better accuracy. Conditions were not good with variable winds to at least 10 mph. Also, I wanted to straighten the bent bolt so I could shoot a 5 shot group. In checking the bolts when I got home, I found that all but one were bent at least .005. I don’t know if they came that way or it was the result of impact and/or removal from the frozen bales, but I straightened them the best I could. Unfortunately, the bolt that hit the tree couldn’t be straightened sufficiently. I returned to the range on March 25th. Conditions were better with light winds, temperature in the low 40’s and clear skies. With the aid of a laser rangefinder, I set my bench up (across the parking lot) exactly 100 yards from the farthest bale. I used a rifle bipod instead of sandbags to rest the stock and had adjusted the scope in the rings to avoid canting. I took two shots to get me close to the bulls-eye, then put up a new target and shot the four almost-straight bolts. The four shot group measured just slightly less than 4 inches across. Because I prefer to shoot 5 shot groups for rifle testing, I pulled the bolts, returned to the bench and shot a fifth bolt. It hit within the holes from the previous four shots, so the 5 shot group at 100 yards measured less than 4 inches across, with 4 of the 5 shots hitting within a 3-inch circle. With straight carbon bolts and perhaps some fine tuning of equipment, I don’t doubt that this could be improved upon, however, this level of long range accuracy exceeded my wildest expectations - and concerns. I have never fired a crossbow before in my life. And now within 20 shots can group 5 bolts into 4 inches at 100 yards with a borrowed crossbow. I can say that I have owned some deer rifles in my life that haven’t grouped that well at 100 yards. However, because of a much greater trajectory curve for the bolt and longer time of flight, the rifle would still be superior unless wind was light and the exact distance was known. Which brings up an interesting point. Ten years ago this very same crossbow wouldn’t have been nearly as effective as a long range weapon because range estimation at that time was far less precise. However, with the development of technology completely unrelated to crossbows – laser rangefinders - this crossbow in conjunction with one becomes a bona fide 100-yard killing machine. It would only be a matter of laser ranging the target, dialing the elevation to that exact distance setting on a scope like the one that came with this crossbow, and then putting the crosshairs on the heart and pulling the trigger. The whole process takes just a few seconds. Pre-ranging distances and using a mil-dot scope would eliminate even that short time. This is only one crossbow. I don’t doubt statements by others that have shot crossbows, particularly older models, that say they are not accurate at longer distances. However, this one is. And if this and other newer models have this potential, then everyone that can hunt with one has essentially the same potential; because accuracy is almost completely a function of mechanical action with no significant skill required. One consideration that I can’t comment on is potential variations in accuracy using broadheads. I suspect, but can’t confirm until our sand bunkers thaw out, that given the substantially heavier projectile fired from a crossbow, especially with mechanical broadheads, projectile flight can be controlled. I will leave it to those that read this to form their own opinions on the effect this type of weapon would have on a bow-only season, but there is no question that with widespread use, the effect would be significant, not only on the bow-only season itself, but also upon the harvest dynamics of all seasons for the species involved. Mike Brust, Wausau, WI" You crack me up Art, I'm sure you seen this befor? Not to mention that the Striker shoots a 425gr bolt at 405fps and double the KE (155ft lbs) of a modern day compound with a 30"/70 lb draw, and still has more energy at 100 yards than the same compound at 20 yards. Hay, I was a regular member of PBS and the X Bow was the reason we parted ways, Back in the 80's they did not even want disabled people using one in the general bow season and I just could not see it. Now I see why, let the manufactures get their hand in your candy bag, and they try to steal the whole bag. Amazing stuff when an Excal Emax at max speed has close to a 25' mid range trajectory at 100 yds. lol. Amazing, yuppir, amazing. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
The lack of respect fellow hunters have in PA would really surprise allot of you that have never hunted a PA deer season.:eek:
Rifle season is a real thing of beauty.[:-] |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Rybo,
The big difference is that i can read lots of comments from folks in PA that indicate that the hunting is not quite the equivalent of rice cakes and water for 8 weeks. You've got people complaining about only seeing one deer a day or having to settle for a doe or small buck. Give me a break. Lots of folks in lots of places would love to have that opportunity. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Amen Rob
I've already addressed this issue today on the Northeast board so I won't repeat myself here. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Problem is, a slob is a slob, no matter what weapon he's carrying. Nobody likes 'em and everyone wishes they'd stay the heck at home.
I think it's very possible you'd see more deadheads heading to the woods with a crossbow, for maybe a year or two. A lot of people will fall for the half truths and outright fabrications coming from the anti-crossbow side. But when they find out they're not the wonder weapon that so many think they are, they would disappear and there would be a lot of used crossbows for sale. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
The lack of respect fellow hunters have in PA would really surprise allot of you that have never hunted a PA deer season.:eek: Rifle season is a real thing of beauty.[:-] I guess you never know until you have experienced it yourself.........hell, if PA produces that many morons in the woods as you guys are saying.................I might have to change my mind and go with Rybo on wishing for less hunters.............I never knew?:eek: |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
LCC,
WHO!? Maybe the folks up in new england. I don't get what you are saying. The complaint here is mostly about the numbers of hunters diminishing the hunting experience. Yea some places have next to no deer in them, and that has made the places that do hold deer that much more crowded. No one is going to drive 2.5 hours to see 1 deer, when they can hunt local and see a ton. But with that, comes dealing with close calls and slobish behavior. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Most of the real morons have their freezers full before any of the seasons open,the meth marathon has taken its toll on our true slob clans. But poaching is rampant,trespass laws are useless.
Believe me we need no incentives to bring any more knuckle dragger's out of the caverns. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
when 1 person can produce 1 neagative to allowing crossbows in every general archery season for everyone I'll be shocked and amazed until then, its elitism and selfishness, nothing more My only problem with crossbows FOR PA is the slobs that we will increasingly be subjected to. anyone ? anyone with a FACT to support no crossbows in general archery ? anyone ? |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Arthur P Problem is, a slob is a slob, no matter what weapon he's carrying. Nobody likes 'em and everyone wishes they'd stay the heck at home. I think it's very possible you'd see more deadheads heading to the woods with a crossbow, for maybe a year or two. A lot of people will fall for the half truths and outright fabrications coming from the anti-crossbow side. But when they find out they're not the wonder weapon that so many think they are, they would disappear and there would be a lot of used crossbows for sale. Don't get me wrong, if I ever succumb to injury or whatever and I can no longer pull a compound/recurve etc, I'll take up the crossbow but with me comes the experience and education I have from using the former. Unfortunately, and as Jim said, our rifle seasons are embarrasing to true ethical hunters in PA. If I didn't love and have the passion I do about bowhunting, I could easily be swayed against hunting because of what I witness year in and year out during rifle seasons. It's that pathetic come the Monday after Thanksgiving. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Lanse how many days have you sat in the woods with your bow??
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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
You PA guys paint an awfully disgusting picture about what's going on in your state. My condolences.
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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Dunno what to tell you Rybo. If you've got a ton of deer onnearby public access ground, then it sounds like you are in pretty good shape compared to some other folks. Sorry you gotta deal with more of a crowd than you want, but that comes withhunting PUBLIC ground.If permitting the crossbow means that the crowd increases by 11.23%, then its time to find less crowded spots. Keep in mind that lots of other types of hunters had to make space for the bowhunters when they really hit the scene in the 60s and 70s. Now, its you fellas turn to move over a bit.
Shultyz: I don't bowhunt. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
You PA guys paint an awfully disgusting picture about what's going on in your state. My condolences. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Rob/PA Bowyer do you know HOW many deer are wounded/missed/lost with compounders every year ?
tens of thousands, a STAGGERING ammount and right here, every fall " I stuck one and it got away" threads will be here by the dozens, NOT crossbow hunters, compound hunters. slobs are carrying compounds by the thousands, how are you addressing that ? |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: HuntinGUS You PA guys paint an awfully disgusting picture about what's going on in your state. My condolences. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Big Duane when 1 person can produce 1 neagative to allowing crossbows in every general archery season for everyone I'll be shocked and amazed until then, its elitism and selfishness, nothing more My only problem with crossbows FOR PA is the slobs that we will increasingly be subjected to. anyone ? anyone with a FACT to support no crossbows in general archery ? anyone ? My only problem with crossbows FOR PA is the slobs that we will increasingly be subjected to. We have too many as it is. (SLOBS). |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: HuntinGUS You PA guys paint an awfully disgusting picture about what's going on in your state. My condolences. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Big Duane Rob/PA Bowyer do you know HOW many deer are wounded/missed/lost with compounders every year ? tens of thousands, a STAGGERING ammount and right here, every fall " I stuck one and it got away" threads will be here by the dozens, NOT crossbow hunters, compound hunters. slobs are carrying compounds by the thousands, how are you addressing that ? |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Look on the bright side fellas. If the woods of PA are populated by an army of slobs, then maybe new crossbow laws will actually bring a better class of hunters into the woods. Hell, if things are that bad, then you dont really have much to lose.[8D]
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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
15yd penalty for piling on.....[8D]
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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
This thread is really starting to sound like the generic, "hunting on public ground is like being in a war zone" that one can find in relation to lots of states. :eek:
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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
LOL, bwanajim. Don't need to come to PA. We've got plenty of horn porn here in Texas.[8D] The current state record non-typical was taken in a draw hunt on a WMA, about 75 miles from where I live.
http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/news/story?page=h_fea_TX_record_buck_Burkhead |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Lanse with all due respect you've never bow hunted in a heavy populated area of hunters. Bow hunting is tough the way it is and the more yahoo's in the woods the harder its going to be in getting your animal. If your sitting in the woods gun hunting its going to be a little easier being you don't need the deer as close. More hunters makes it tougher on bow hunters then it does the gun hunters.
Edit: You would think there would be more hunting accidents as well in high populated hunting areas. Thats not a good thing either!! |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Arthur P LOL, bwanajim. Don't need to come to PA. We've got plenty of horn porn here in Texas.[8D] The current state record non-typical was taken in a draw hunt on a WMA, about 75 miles from where I live. http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/news/story?page=h_fea_TX_record_buck_Burkhead |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Shultzy,
I would not deer hunt in an area heavily populated by other hunterswhether it be guns, compound bows or crossbows.That's why i pinched my pennies and bought my own ground. However, until the DNR or whoever, decides that some sort of critical mass has been reached on public ground, then i am not gonna try to tell one style of hunters that public hunting groundis off limiits to them. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Availability of a crossbow season will not make anyone unethical. They either are or aren't already. Any effect on the herd will probably be negligible. Just look at the facts from states that allow them. After an initial rush things will settle down when the new crossbow hunters realize there is little advantage to using one. It is a short range weapon that requires skill similar to bow.
Here in New York few seem to want to add crossbows to the regular archery seasons that were hard fought to obtain and hold on to. Some hunters are concerned about lower hunter numbers but refuse to add another segment. Some like lower hunter numbers but do not realize the lower hunter "power" (political) that comes with the lower numbers. On a crossbow hunt in Ohio about 5 years ago that our club won (I and another club member took the trip) we received new crossbows as we were leaving to return home. I shoot that crossbow every so often. My kids and grandkids shoot it also. But we like to shoot anything. Pellet, 22, muzzleloader, rifle, bow just as long as we're busting balloons, knocking over cans or hitting bulls eyes...or hunting. I don't care what anyone shoots. I don't think New York will add crossbows to any hunting season soon but don't really care if they do. And I will hunt with my bow...not the crossbow. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Shultzy, I would not deer hunt in an area heavily populated by other hunters whether it be guns, compound bows or crossbows. That's why i pinched my pennies and bought my own ground. However, until the DNR or whoever, decides that some sort of critical mass has been reached on public ground, then i am not gonna try to tell one style of hunters that public hunting ground is off limiits to them. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
I dont live there.....and hear you guys.....but I don't think any of us who don't live there can comprehend PA's hunting pressure.
I know for a fact I can't. They have the same relative deer herd we have here.....and 3x+ as many hunters. It's not the fact that they'd have more hunters.....it's the FACT that they'd have more hunters hunting the bow seasons. In reality....it's the same outcome. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
I've said it before, i will say it again; the fundamental issue is thatpeople need to mobilize and push their individual states to expand public access ground. If you don't dothat, then it ultimately wont matter if another 11% of hunters get in on the action, because we will all be screwed anyway.
If every state increased its public access hunting ground by 10 to 20 percent then we wouldn't even be having this argument. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Big Duane, I can tell you for a fact that allowing crossbows legal in all of PA archery seasons will produce more slobs and it will be because of the crossbow as these slob rifle hunters (not all but the ones that are) will take up the crossbow and sling bolts where they never will pic up a compound. And I see you took my thread and quoted only what you wanted to paint your picture, I already know there are slob compounders, here I'll quote myself so you get the point! see, I'm from a crossbow state, and I KNOW there aren't more slobs due to crossbows because of 30 years of experience in the woods with them. Compound bowhunters are FAR more the slobs in my experience. Thats in the woods with crossbows legal experience not something make believe by the P&Y boogy man club Big Duane, are you not able to comprehend that is obvious, now double that by allowing crossbows in PA. Do you live or hunt in PA? If not, you absolutely don't have a clue what goes on in PA. I lived here, hunted here all my life. IT'S PATHETIC. Here in New York few seem to want to add crossbows to the regular archery seasons that were hard fought to obtain and hold on to. not only that, for the longest time >65% wasn't legal,, releases were not legal, mechanical heads? not legal ponder this - in PA you have how many tags? does it matter if you fill them with archery or muzzleloader or a rifle ? I mean, really DOES IT MATTER? |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Since it's overcrowding and the possible influx of even more hunters that seems to be the primary concern with crossbows, I've got two fair questions to ask.
Since compounds are used by roughly 90% of all bowhunters, how many would support voting to limit bow seasons to only traditional bows? Would you throw away your high tech compound and pick up a recurve or longbow to be able to hunt with 90% fewer people in the woods? |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Point of parliamentary procedure.......ahem....
ponder this - in PA you have how many tags? does it matter if you fill them with archery or muzzleloader or a rifle ? I mean, really DOES IT MATTER? |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Since compounds are used by roughly 90% of all bowhunters, how many would support voting to limit bow seasons to only traditional bows? Would you throw away your high tech compound and pick up a recurve or longbow to be able to hunt with 90% fewer people in the woods? A crossbow isn't a bow to me in function or spirit. Combine that with how screwed up PA really is and that's my personal stance in a nutshell. We're not creating NEW hunters in PA we're potentially transposing hundreds of thousands of them into a different season so the not wanting new hunters is not a valid argument. HOWEVER if all of a sudden 200,000 rifle hunters wanted to pick up one of the first 3 mentioned bows and join us in archery season I would just swallow that pill and welcome them in. All they have to do is pick up the weapons that are already classified as leagl for that season and have fun. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
I just voted yes to allow x-bows in MI. Bring on 200,000 more hunters:D
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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Dunno what to tell you Rybo. If you've got a ton of deer onnearby public access ground, then it sounds like you are in pretty good shape compared to some other folks. Sorry you gotta deal with more of a crowd than you want, but that comes withhunting PUBLIC ground.If permitting the crossbow means that the crowd increases by 11.23%, then its time to find less crowded spots. Keep in mind that lots of other types of hunters had to make space for the bowhunters when they really hit the scene in the 60s and 70s. Now, its you fellas turn to move over a bit. Shultyz: I don't bowhunt. The vast majority of the central part of the state is public land that may or may not hold deer. Much of it doesn't. Low numbers, + lots of people makes it not fun for many. For me its just too far to drive to for it to matter to me. Never did I say I have close public land with lots of deer. I said people stay close to home and jsut hunt where ever, they flood every "open" piece of land whether they have permission to be there or not. THe places that out right allow you to hunt are overwhelmed, while the land next door lies vacant. LOTS OF DEER, LITTLE ACCESS. And you are so full of it your eyes have to be brown. Many hunters had to "make room" for bowhunters back in the 60's and 70's!! That would be laughable if it wasn't so misguided. You had a 1/10 of the people hunting a season that didn't compete with any others!!!!! And now to top it off you don't even bow hun!!! You don't have a dog in this fight other than to irk people. You have NO clue of the situations, yet freely offer what should be done in them....wow. ponder this - in PA you have how many tags? does it matter if you fill them with archery or muzzleloader or a rifle ? I mean, really DOES IT MATTER? And yes it matters IMMENSELY to people who like to hunt with a particular weapon and want to fill those tags while at the same time being able to enjoy the hunt itself. I have absolutely NO desire to shoot a buck with a gun. I still gun hunt for does, and to spend time with people, but if I don't get a buck with a bow, I don't care to shoot one at all....well except with my revolver. That would suit me fine. Butalot of times its as much about enjoying the hunt itself, as it is filling the tag. And in mine and many others opinions, hunting where there is too many people is not fun. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
I'm not gonna read all the posts. I have said before I'm for what-ever is legal in your State. The thing I can't believe is that the new state of the art crossbows are $2000. Ten-point, Horton and Stryker's new bows all are near that dollar figure. That blows my mind! When you think our best bows can still be had at around $700-$900 it's pretty eye-opening.
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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
A crossbow isn't a bow to me in function or spirit. We're not creating NEW hunters in PA we're potentially transposing hundreds of thousands of them into a different season so the not wanting new hunters is not a valid argument. HOWEVER if all of a sudden 200,000 rifle hunters wanted to pick up one of the first 3 mentioned bows and join us in archery season I would just swallow that pill and welcome them in. All they have to do is pick up the weapons that are already classified as legal for that season and have fun. 35-40+ years ago people wanted easier - and thus the compound revolution was born. they didn't want to hunt with the bows they had so they forced the next generation and bowhunting evolved WONDERFULLY didn't it ? do ya'll agree that right now, with compounds in archery season, we've got BETTER seasons, BETTER G&F, BETTER almost everything ? and with the addition of hundreds of thousands and yes, MILLIONS of people using compounds who likely would NEVER have started bowhunting without them ? you can't argue that you also cannot produce one negative to crossbows Matt / PA if your nightmare is to come true, why didn't it come true in Arkansas ? Ohio? Canadian provinces? Was it SC that allows them ofr AL ? Did the tags decrease because of the huge influx of crossbow hunters ? no, of course they didn't, and crossbows don't spawn more bad hutners, or poaching, or overcrowding etc etc .... thats never been proven and regurgetation straight from the P&Y horror books on crossbows And yes it matters IMMENSELY to people who like to hunt with a particular weapon and want to fill those tags while at the same time being able to enjoy the hunt itself. And in mine and many others opinions, hunting where there is too many people is not fun. maybe guys who use self bows think the same about you? why don't you leave THEIR season and go get your own ? its not the same you say? OF COURSE ITS THE SAME, except now, YOUR choice of weapon is there to try and defend. and you cannot do it, and here is more reality check - G&F commissions see huge $$$$$ in allowing crossbows, while at the same time maximizing the opportunity of the people in the states WITHOUT compromising the herds, tags and dates tough all you compounders - when your choice of bow invaded archery season, trad hunters HATED YOU. now, the new kid on the block is invading, and you're doing the hating - how ironic huh ? Look, your state very likely already allows crossbows. Now, they're not just for the handicap anymore, they're for everyone. Your seasons will not change much, if people take more bucks earlier on, then better hutning and less crowds for you towards the ends of the seasons. |
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