RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Schultzy, that in my opinion is not in itself a reason or valid example tonot consider crossbows as "archery tackle". I say this because there are some compound bows that do not qualify for P&Y either yet they are considered by most as "archery tackle".

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

I should have known you'd stop in on a crossbow thread to put me in my "historical place".....LOL:D:D:D

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

It was ment by way of numbers Steve, not as a personal insult to any one.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

The P&Y is not the reason why I say what I say but I am happy on there stance although there stance has weakened very much the last 15 years or so. Where would technology be in bow hunting if they didn't care? Why is it when someone who doesn't believe a crossbow is legit archery equipment get slammed so bad? Its an opinion just as yours and mine is.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Bowmen and crossbowmen have been going at it like this for ages.



It's just not quite as bloody as it used to be.

But then they can get along and be friendly too.



Check out the sharp duds the guy with the longbow is wearing. [8D]

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Cool picture there Art!!!:D

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

You sure are wanting to twist things up gus, go back and reread my posts and see who gets the smiley faces. LOL

Tell you what, go to your local 6th grade school and have them 12 year olds shoot a rifle at 50 yards a bow at 20 yards and a X Bow at 50 yards and ask them which one the X bow is most like and we will see who gets this.....LOL [&:].
We had 12 year olds hitting paper plates at 100 yards with an X Bow with a scope on it the first time they ever seen one, and that was 20 years ago.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Schultzy,

Fist of all...I never slammed you nor any other individual only "bow hunters" as a whole with my only derogatory statement being: "Bow hunters (as a whole) are the most elitist and selfish hunters I know". I still believe that and this thread does nothing to disprove my thoughts on the matter.

As far as crossbows being archery tackle....they are! Crossbows are acknowledged by the IBO, Archery Trade Association, National Archery Association, National Field Archery Society and many many other organizations not to mention countless states across the nations and that number is rising daily. I'm not trying to "slam" anybody I'm simply trying to explain (in detail I might add) how the similarities of a crossbowto a compound bow far...far...outnumber the differencesthey might have and how they are more bow like than firearm like. I acknowledge the fact that a crossbow is shouldered and aimed like a rifle, but the basic principles...let me repeat that the basic principles are the same as a compound bow or a trad bow. This is how things are categorized by basic operating principles.

You can have sub categories and that's fine but while a horse and a motorcycle are both forms of transportation that you ride on, they will never be the same because they use completely different forms of propulsion and rely on totally different operating mechanisms,one being muscle power and the other a combustion engine, they are different. Therefore saying a motorcycle is more like a horse than a car because you "ride them both" is wrong.A motorcycle is a mechanical combustion engine driven machine where a horse is a mammal, a living and breathing organism that uses muscle power to move. Conversely to say a crossbow is the same as a firearm/rifle because you "shoulder them both" is also wrong because they are operated in a totally different way. One uses energy stored in limbs to propel an arrow/bolt by use of a string while the other utilizes a combustible substance (gun powder) to propel a projectile down an enclosed barrel. How in the world anyone can think a crossbow is more a firearm than a bow is beyond me.

That being said, again I will reitterate.....I don't care if crossbows are put in the gun season, bow season or there own season, there is nothing wrong with them. They are just another "tool" used to hunt with, and if they (crossbows) bring more people into the sport or prolong a hunters time in the woods, I'm all for them......in any season!

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

No, it's OK for you to shoot whatever you want as long as it is legal as it is for me to do the same.

That does not preclude that I consider one who shoots a crossbow 'cheating' themselves out of the opportunity to shoot a compound which is infinitely more enjoyable. And yes, I am also 'cheating' myself out of usiing traditional gear, but I choose to because of my age and wellness.

I thought my original post clearly conveyed my meaning and intention, but obviously not all folks read all words and interpret them as such! Arrogance and elitism was never conveyed in any of my posts! IF you or anyone else has considered my comments as such, they have falsely judged my intent!

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

:DAfter about 30 yrs of xbow use in Ar, we took about 161,000 deer last season. Verts 10,xxx, xbows 41xx and guns the rest. Our deer are just as tasty as yours, lol. Wouldn't a reasonable person think if there was some magical advantage involved w/ them there would be different stats? Btw: 5 month archery season, 4 deer limit, 2 bucks max any weapon. Much ado about nothing.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Crossbows (I refer to them as XBows as its easier to type), have been legal here in VA for something like 3 or 4 seasons now.... here are my observations and takes...

First... I have never seen anyone hunting in the woods with an xbow... ever.

Second... There are still too many deer in our state.

Thirdly... The revenue for our DGIF (DNR) has gone up.. and our state government is taking more of it away thanks to Jim Gilmore and his stupid no-car-tax ploy he used to win the gubernatorial election a few years ago. That has left a hole in our budget big enough to drive a truck through (no pun intended), and many state programs are getting cut and agencies budgets getting squeezed to make up for it. Not cool. But the added revenue the xbow license has created has no doubt helped.

Additionally... there are very few younger folks or even middle aged folks who have taken up xbow hunting as their first step into archery. 90% of the folks who by crossbows went to them from a compound, or used to shoot a compound or trad gear, but through a life of hard work do not have the shoulders they used to have. They are not handicapped per the former requirements, but not really fit to use vertical archery tackle either...




My personal opinion..... shooting/hunting with a crossbow is no different than being gay. Its not contagious. It will not come running into your woods or home and get you or infect you. It will not ruin all of your hunting opportunities. Personally, I do not really care for it... or see the attraction of such a thing... but if you choose to do so or partake in that activity than good for you, I hope you enjoy yourself. How you hunt and how you live are completely up to you, and hunting is really a quite private activity, and it doesn't affect or bother me one way or another.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Then why do they not come close to posting the same scores at IBO events where they shoot the same course?
They typically fall in the middle - smoked by a lot of the compounders.

Steve

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Good grief, after all the fuss that went on over crossbows about a month ago I never thought that it would be brought back up again!

As many of you know, I hunt with a crossbow. SwampCollie said that very few younger hunters take up crossbow hunting as a first step into archery, well I am one of those few. I'm 18 and have been hunting with one for this will be my fourth season. I stated it many times in the last discussion that I hope to take up compounds in the next year or so and trad bows somewhere down the road. When it comes down to it, I just love to hunt, I dont care with what. Honestly,I'd rather hunt with a muzzleloader than anything else (look out Jim Shockey!;)), I'm just that kinda guy I guess.

Seriously though, crossbows are fun to hunt with and just plain fun to shoot. Are they easier to harvest a deer with than a compound? Yes, however, there is still a learning curve you have to make with your equipment to really become efficient with your crossbow.

Everyone touched on just about every subject. No, the archery season will not be flooded with crossbowers. No, they will not kill "your" deer". No, they will not ruin your hunting.

As far as crossbow hunters being the "bubba's" of the hunting world, I find that claim to be completely bogus. Granter there are going to be some lost folks out there in the deer woods with no idea as to what they are doing, but thats the case with just about any weapon, I am sure.

I do, however, find those who do not want it included in the archery season to not necessarily be selfish, but maybe a little too proud. I am not accusing anyone on here of such a claim, but having read over the posts thats the best insight I have on that.

Take Schultzy for example, perhaps the best all around guy we have on this site. He doesn't want them included in the archery season. Why? He isn't a fan of all the modern technology in regards to bowhuntin (feel free to correct me if thats false) and would rather head out with his stick and string and harvest a deer the old fashion way. Nothing wrong with that at all, his view is completely unbiased, educated and reasonable. When you bring those hunters in who say, "I dont want a crossbow hunter in the woods during archery season, cause hes shouldering his weapon while I draw mine, blah blah blah." That's whenI have a problem.

Well thats my 2 cents on the topic.

Overview:

I hunt with a crossbow and will as long as I can hunt. Anti-crossbowers don't bother me much because most of their accusations are made out of pure ignornance (Ignorance is a lack of knowledge folks- an opportunity to learn, nothing to get in a tussel about) and I respect and appreciate each and every other hunters views and opinions and selfishly expect every hunter to do the same, because we all are out there for the same reason: to enjoy the outdoors and chase after God's most majestic animal.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

132 posts....wew...grab a stick and string...toss some flint around....

Do it....go for it....go bare bones....you only live once....feel that sensation of taking a white-tail with a long bow and flint heads....

Then do whatever you please...[8D]You will love me for it...and you will love hunting more then you love it now...:D

Just an opinion...I do not want the wolves coming after me now.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Maybe it's just me. or call me crazy.....but I'd rather form my own opinions and take advice from tose who have hunted for years rather than grade-schoolers.[&:][8D]

I'm not trying to twist anything Sliver. I just happen to disagree with you on this.............no big deal really.

Remember, we are on the same team.;)

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

IMO....that's the best post I've ever seen on this subject. Along with some things BigJ (and others) have said........I think we ought to leave the emotion out and look at the facts.

Like you, SC....I've never seen anyone use one in the woods. I only know of oneperson who uses one.....and it affects me NONE.

If I lived in a state like PA....I might have a different view. But...for our state....we need more deer killed. Anyone doing so in a legal and ethical manner has my support.

GREAT POST!

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

I ain't saying whether I believe or disbelieve that one, though after a couple of years of messing with crossbows I know I couldn't do it without having a good benchrest and having the crossbow sandbagged into place.

Also, the trajectory would have me shimming the scope mount way up to get anywhere close to being able to sight in at 100 yards. The longest yardage mark in the scope on my best crossbow - Excalibur Vixen - is on target at around 43 yards but nearly 2 feet under the spot at 50 yards.

Even if I could shim up the scope enough to get a 100 yard zero, I think the crossbow would be elevated so high the end of the arrow deck would block the view of the target.

I'm just saying I don't know how this shooting was accomplished at 100 yards... but I'm keeping my can of BS repellent close at hand. ;)

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

To me, there is a greater distance between TRUE traditional bowhunters and modern day compounders, than there is between crossbows and modern day compounders ..... that right there is XBow gospel [:-]

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

I would lie about such a thing? You need to spray yourself with the repelent since your post is based on speculation. Oh, and they were shooting it off of standard bails of straw, you must have assumed they were shooting it free hand? Also the arrow was elevated off of a Y rest like what was on the old SABO, you can look it up on Archery history if you dont remember what one looked like, not the rail.
I'm just saying, when I dont know something to be a fact, I usually dont say nothing at all.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Well if thats the case, I have 41 yearsas a licensedbowhunter and competitive archery, although have not been to competitive as of late. Even had a few articles published over the years.

I agree, we disagree on this! ;)

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Oh, I dunno... But referring back to your first post in the thread:

I'd say maybe you might have taken the opportunity to spread misinformation about crossbows to further your own point of view that they shouldn't be allowed in archery seasons. Wouldn't be the first time people have done that. The Professional Bowhunters Society has a special anti-crossbow committee doing that very thing.

Again, I'm not saying it wasn't done because I wasn't there. But I am very skeptical, as anyone should be when they see extraordinary claims about anything. Especially when the person making the claim has already laid out his agenda.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

"Crossbow Tests
March 2005

Great Lakes Crossbow Co. -DURANGO

The reason for conducting these tests was to establish a basis for performance measurements between modern crossbows and other hunting weapons, most specifically, modern compound bows. Given the movement to redefine crossbows as conventional archery tackle so as to allow their use during bowhunting-only seasons, it seemed appropriate to provide a means for comparison. Of particular interest was the accuracy potential of a rested crossbow at extended ranges. Crossbow manufacturers list velocity and pull weights, but I am not aware of any published accuracy expectations.

In early March 2005 I obtained a Great Lakes Crossbow Co. Durango model crossbow in slightly used condition. While it does not have as high peak weight (165 pounds) as many of the “high performance” crossbows that peak at 175 pounds to 200 pounds, it does have a 17-inch power stroke, and overall, it’s velocity and kinetic energy ratings compare favorably with other modern crossbows.

This crossbow has an overall weight of 8 ¼ lbs., 34-inch length without the stirrup, and very heavy two-piece limbs with an axle-to-axle length of 27 ¼ inches. It uses round cams, approximately 2 9/16 inches in diameter. It comes fitted with a 4 power, parallax adjustable scope with hand adjustable windage and elevation turrets. The trigger has a pull weight of over 7 pounds, with considerable creep and overtravel. While the crossbow does have a crossbolt safety, it can’t be engaged until after the crossbow is cocked and it is in an awkward location to operate safely. Five bolts were also provided. They were fitted with 100 grain screw-in target points and 5” vanes at a slight straight offset. The shafts are 2219 Easton aluminum, cut to 22 1/8 inches before inserts and had an average weight, with points, of 476 grains.

Although as the shooter, I have no previous experience shooting crossbows, I do have considerable experience in competitive rifle shooting.

The first test took place indoors on March 10th. A total of 4 bolts were shot before the cocking mechanism broke under pressure, causing minor damage and some trepidation on the part of the operator. The crossbow was rested across a stool with all 4 shots taken at 22 yards. The initial shot was used to adjust the sights and find a hard spot on the bales where the bolts wouldn’t pass completely through them, and then three shots were taken at the same point of aim. The first was taken then pulled. The second entered within ½ inch of the first bolt hole and then a third was shot, which hit right next to the second and almost exactly in the hole that the first was pulled from. As mentioned, the cocking winch broke at that point, but a three shot group of under ¾ inches was a pretty impressive start.

After the winch was repaired I was back at the range on March 12th to shoot at longer distances. The crossbow was shot from a shooting bench with sandbags. I had shimmed the back of the scope .050 because I anticipated that the scope would run out of elevation adjustment before it could be held dead-on at the longer ranges I hoped to shoot it at. It turned out not to be necessary because even at 90 yards, the bolt sailed over the whole bale assembly. It was recovered but was bent badly due to impact with a tree. The shims came out. After four shots at 40 and 60 yards to get “on” the bales I moved to 90 yards and impacted below my aiming point. I then adjusted the scope to the bulls-eye and shot a four shot group with the four straight bolts I had remaining. The aiming point was a scrap of white paper. The first shot hit about 1 inch left of the paper, the second hit it, the third hit about 4 inches right and the final one, less than an inch right. The final 90-yard group was a horizontal string less than 5 inches across. Penetration was approximately 8 inches into frozen and practically new excelsior bales.

Even though these results surprised me, I felt this crossbow was actually capable of better accuracy. Conditions were not good with variable winds to at least 10 mph. Also, I wanted to straighten the bent bolt so I could shoot a 5 shot group.


In checking the bolts when I got home, I found that all but one were bent at least .005. I don’t know if they came that way or it was the result of impact and/or removal from the frozen bales, but I straightened them the best I could. Unfortunately, the bolt that hit the tree couldn’t be straightened sufficiently.

I returned to the range on March 25th. Conditions were better with light winds, temperature in the low 40’s and clear skies. With the aid of a laser rangefinder, I set my bench up (across the parking lot) exactly 100 yards from the farthest bale. I used a rifle bipod instead of sandbags to rest the stock and had adjusted the scope in the rings to avoid canting.

I took two shots to get me close to the bulls-eye, then put up a new target and shot the four almost-straight bolts. The four shot group measured just slightly less than 4 inches across. Because I prefer to shoot 5 shot groups for rifle testing, I pulled the bolts, returned to the bench and shot a fifth bolt. It hit within the holes from the previous four shots, so the 5 shot group at 100 yards measured less than 4 inches across, with 4 of the 5 shots hitting within a 3-inch circle.

With straight carbon bolts and perhaps some fine tuning of equipment, I don’t doubt that this could be improved upon, however, this level of long range accuracy exceeded my wildest expectations - and concerns.

I have never fired a crossbow before in my life. And now within 20 shots can group 5 bolts into 4 inches at 100 yards with a borrowed crossbow. I can say that I have owned some deer rifles in my life that haven’t grouped that well at 100 yards. However, because of a much greater trajectory curve for the bolt and longer time of flight, the rifle would still be superior unless wind was light and the exact distance was known. Which brings up an interesting point. Ten years ago this very same crossbow wouldn’t have been nearly as effective as a long range weapon because range estimation at that time was far less precise. However, with the development of technology completely unrelated to crossbows – laser rangefinders - this crossbow in conjunction with one becomes a bona fide 100-yard killing machine. It would only be a matter of laser ranging the target, dialing the elevation to that exact distance setting on a scope like the one that came with this crossbow, and then putting the crosshairs on the heart and pulling the trigger. The whole process takes just a few seconds. Pre-ranging distances and using a mil-dot scope would eliminate even that short time.

This is only one crossbow. I don’t doubt statements by others that have shot crossbows, particularly older models, that say they are not accurate at longer distances. However, this one is. And if this and other newer models have this potential, then everyone that can hunt with one has essentially the same potential; because accuracy is almost completely a function of mechanical action with no significant skill required.

One consideration that I can’t comment on is potential variations in accuracy using broadheads. I suspect, but can’t confirm until our sand bunkers thaw out, that given the substantially heavier projectile fired from a crossbow, especially with mechanical broadheads, projectile flight can be controlled.

I will leave it to those that read this to form their own opinions on the effect this type of weapon would have on a bow-only season, but there is no question that with widespread use, the effect would be significant, not only on the bow-only season itself, but also upon the harvest dynamics of all seasons for the species involved.


Mike Brust,
Wausau, WI"

You crack me up Art, I'm sure you seen this befor?
Not to mention that the Striker shoots a 425gr bolt at 405fps and double the KE (155ft lbs) of a modern day compound with a 30"/70 lb draw, and still has more energy at 100 yards than the same compound at 20 yards.

Hay, I was a regular member of PBS and the X Bow was the reason we parted ways, Back in the 80's they did not even want disabled people using one in the general bow season and I just could not see it. Now I see why, let the manufactures get their hand in your candy bag, and they try to steal the whole bag.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

So that means that if placed on a rest of some sort, that a compound bow would still not be as capable of that accuracy......

This is getting ignorant..... I never , ever , placed the crossbow I shot on any type of rest - other than my hand as a support underneath..... Last time I checked, there were no wooden stools up in my climbing stand..... no hay bales either...... come on people, the lame arguments are showing your true bias......

I have used them, and there is nothing wrong with them..... and they have not harmed Arkansas Hunting in over 25 years...... get over it......

MET

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Nope, I hadn't seen that before. Interesting.

But as to speed, what has driven the compound market for the past 20 years? PSE X-Force, Martin Slayer, Bowtech 82nd Airborne - those are just a few compounds that are claiming speeds up to 350 fps IBO. When they bump up that extra 50 fps and break 400 fps, how many do you reckon will holler they shouldn't be allowed in bow season? I'd bet they won't be able to keep 'em on the shelves.

I haven't shot a Stryker yet. Probably won't ever get a chance to. I can't see spending $1500 on a crossbow when I can get a nice Browning Citori shotgun for that kind of money. ;) A few differences between it and my Vixen. It's 175 lbs draw, my Vixen is 150. It's got high performance cams, Vixen is a recurve. It's got a 17" power stroke, Vixen is 13.5". And it weighs over 10 pounds! Vixen weighs 6 lbs. And I don't need a winch to draw the Vixen. :)

I'm just saying your average green toothed redneck - the guy everyone seems to be terrified will be flooding the woods - isn't going to be waltzing out to the deer woods toting a Stryker. Going on safari in Africa, where you can hire someone to carry it for you and you need the punch, then yeah. They'd do well for that.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Well Michael since you and Art own and use one I would have to say your opinion is Bias.
If your stand does not have a shooting rail, I can send you a picture of me shooting one off of my knee, it's easy and much more accurate than free hand, almost as good as the prone.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

I said I used to own one..... I no longer do, and I no longer hunt with one, and I haven't for years ..... So no sir I am not biased, but I am informed. And I'm not scared..... I look at reality, and the reality is that it has very , very little impact on the harvest numbers, and on the additional hunter numbers. In all my years, I have only seen 1 hunter with a crossbow..... other than myself, back when.

MET

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

when 1 person can produce 1 neagative to allowing crossbows in every general archery season for everyone I'll be shocked and amazed

until then, its elitism and selfishness, nothing more

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

As if your opinion isn't. :D

I used to have the same prejudicial bias you and others do until I was forced to try a crossbow or give up ARCHERY altogether. I quickly learned I was sadly mistaken about a great many things.

I shoulder a stock and I look through a scope, but at that point all similarities between crossbows and firearms end. I still have to make accurate yardage readings in order to hit what I aim at. With my muzzleloader, I sight in at 75 yards and don't have to worry about whether the animal is at 20, 50 or 80 yards. With my crossbow, I still have to know whether that deer is at 20 yards or 25 yards in order to put the arrow where I want it.

Yes, I said arrow. It's 20" long and that meets the legal minimum length requirement for arrows in Texas. My midieval crossbows and that old Barnett I've got both shoot bolts, IMO, because they are shorter than 20".

As for accuracy, since when is making an accurate shot a bad thing?

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

I was fairly indifferent about crossbows to begin with. I was more worried on how it would effect the hunting. After reading these reports, I am actually for crossbows if it will get more people into the sport.

I don't know about everywhere else, but hunting license in Louisiana are definately declining. Allowing crossbows during open archery season could very well help to solve this problem. (Doubtful, but one can dream.)

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

For the life of me, I’ll never understand wanting MORE hunters. I guess that’s the curse of growing up in PA. [&:]

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Ditto here Doc. Didn't give a damn one way or the other until recently. Then my dad had to start hunting with one and i learned some stuff about it first hand. Reading the pro crossbow arguments and checking out the statistics myself helped to further make up my mind. Theconsistently weak arguments of the anti- folks was the final straw. And i pride myself on grasping the big picture in terms of generating more interest and participation in hunting, even if it means getting folks out there with blowgun[&:]

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

I really don't understand this Rybo. More hunters is a good thing.What if our fathers and grandfathers never cared about teaching and introducing the sport to friends, children, friends of children? Hunting would surely be dead............

I understand the frustration of the woods being poluted with hunters......I hunt and live in WV;)howeverwishing for less hunters IMO is a wishing a death sentence on hunting...............

Whatever the means whatever the method, I think we should welcome new sportsman and conservationists.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

I think that there are lots of HNI members who would love to trade places with some of the PA folks in terms of access to public lands, even if they don't see a big buck everyday. I guess it depends on if you see the glass as half empty or half full.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

I won't be one of them, Lance.

Heard TOO many stories from guys I trust.

Me likey NC.;)

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

PA is a place where owning your own land should be every hunters first goal.:)

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

I don’t necessarily out right wish for less hunters and I certainly do not wish for hunting not to be handed down generation to generation, but living where I have, and seeing the amount of hunters I do all season long, it diminishes from the enjoyment I get out in the woods. So when others wish there were more hunters out their, it becomes difficult for me to comprehend.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Its like Sunday hunting to me I pay taxes on my land for seven days per week,but the gooberman I pay them to says I can't use them as I see fit but for only six of those days.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

GMMAT,

If you lived in Texas or Southern California,the middle of Chicago, or plenty of other places,then lots of placesin PA close to public ground would be looking pretty damn good about now.I love the northwestern part of PA based on a couple trips thru their, and if i had the chance would trade it for southwest Ohio in a minute.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Amen rybo.

My only problem with crossbows FOR PA is the slobs that we will increasingly be subjected to. We have too many as it is. (SLOBS). I also would feel for public land hunters. Right now our public land archers have a difficult time finding solitude to enjoy what they do, add twice that many and our archery seasons would be no different than our orange clad army seasons.

Crossbows probably won't impact my hunting areas but honestly, I don't want to find out.

RE: Opinions on Crossbows
 

Good god.....is it really that bad in PA? :eek:[&:]