That sounds good in theory but that isn't true all the time either. How would it be explained that there are "mountain" bucks killed her in PA every year that go up into the 140" and 150" range. Pennsylvania isn't known for having great buck genetics and they sure as heck don't have good nutrition in the area considering there are little to no farm lands in the area.

Buck:

The absence of farms doesn't necessarily mean an absence of good nutrition. Why would you try to make crop fields out of mountainous terrain?

I think (though I won't speak for the author of that statement) he was speaking "in general". I'm sure IL has small, inferior gened bucks, too.....though the probability of the opposite is more likely. The fertlity and nutrient content of the midwest soil isnot up for debate. It's fact.

I know what you are sayin BM.... Any "location" can and will produce large racked bucks even if the soil is acidic and of poor quality. You don't have to have Iowa dirt to grow big bucks.

Although watchout you are now speaking to a brick wall that reads what he wants andnot what was written and knows EVERY thing about whitetails because he read in on the internet.... You will get no where and I caution you to tread lightly before you get stalked by him

Kidding???? No, not really

PA was never considered to have good genetics because so few deer ever got to reach an age where they could show thier true genetics. Imagine those 140-150" bucks with some ag crops...they'd go 160-170" I'd say they had incredible genetics.

O my, where to start

Very true, but it does generally mean that there isn't a constant food source providing good nutrition for the deer. Sure, there are some oaks that produce a good mast crop, but they don't drop acorns all year long so the deer browse pretty much the rest of the year. This browse doesn't regenerate at the rate the deer eat it so I would say its pretty safe to say that there is a lack of good nutrition in general.

Thats exactly what I am talking about Scott. Any location can and will produce large racked whitetail deer. Yes, nutrition and genetics are definetly part of the equation but overall genetics and nutrition mean squat when the deer aren't living to the age of maturity. This isn't something that can be fixed over night either, it takes years of consistant and constant management to turn a out of balance deer herd into a "trophy" herd. You can pass all the 1-1/2 year old bucks you want for several years and still not see a major differance in antler size. That is simply because it takes time for the management to work through to where the bucks are growing trophy antlers. This can be achieved EVERYWHERE, heck, there are places in Florida producing 150"-160" whitetail bucks, to think it can't be done everywhere is crazy.


Okay, I found this particularly amussing. I'm sorry GMMAT, but to cast Buckeye's knowledge of hunting mature whitetails off as something that everybody can achieve easily is simply crazy. It doesn't matter what part of the country you are from, consistantly harvesting mature bucks takes skill and a special knowledge of the herd that can't be read off the internet or found in any magazine or book. There are some guys on here that consistantly bag mature bucks, KCISON, GregH, MOTOWN, Rybo, ect.. these guys didn't aquire the knowledge it takes to harvest these deer from a magazine, it took years of hard work and pure dedication.

Very true Rybo, but if these bucks had the genetics that some areas provide (which can and is currently being worked on) that some other areas like Iowa, Kansas, Illinois, Canada, ect.. those same 160"-170" bucks could be 190"-200" bucks.

I really don't think the deer in PA would grow any bigger racks if they were anywhere else - particularly in the Ohio River watershed... Western Pennsylvania supports some of the most diverse and nutrient-rich whitetail habitat on the planet. I've got rolls and rolls of film of 2.5 year old bucks thatare absolutely gorgeous by anyone's standards - allbefore they've ever even celebrated their third birthdays...

The genetics of PA whitetails trace their lineage back to the early 1900's, when the deer population was abyssmally low, and whitetails were reintroduced in the form of "stocked" Canadian and midwestern whitetails. So, the genes of the deer we're shooting are probably a 99.999% match to those shot in Saskatchewan and/or Pike County. Most people wouldn't say that those deer come from "bad" bloodlines...

Our problem isn't genetics at all. It's hunting pressure. Our deer aren't growing big racks because we're killing them before they have a chance to.

PA hunters are a victim of our own circumstance - too many people. I know what we put up with on a daily basis, and I hear some of you midwestern guys say "we need to get more people into hunting" - trust me - be careful what you wish for...

Why don't you two chickens just meet and have it out once and for all??

You bring up a good point, yes, parts of Pennsylvania (especially where you and I are located) have great habitat for deer with ample amounts of nutrition for the deer. Honestly though, if the genetics are equal, and we have the amazing nutrition that these areas do, then that would mean it must be an "age" thing...but that wouldn't explain why an average Pennsylvania whitetail will generally score less than an average Canadian or Illinois/Kansas/Iowa whitetail of the same age. That makes me wonder just how much hunting pressure could affect antler development. I wonder if the stress of having 1 million plus hunters in the woods of a smaller state each year can have adverse effects on antler growth.

No, that sounds more like luck to me than anything else.

Okay, where to start with this one.

Not making light ofScott's accomplishments? You are implying that the reason he consistantly kills large bucks is simply because of location! How is that not down playing his accomplishments? Yes, Ohio is know to grow big bucks, but that doesn't mean that every patch of woods in Ohio has a few booners running around. Granted, Scott's property may hold more large racked bucks than other peoples properties, but that can't be cast off as just a "natural" thing. This is due to the fact that he practices management and he puts in hours of work afield each year to make it that way. Let a group of PA rifle hunters hunt that same property for a few years and guess what, it won't be producing the bucks that it does now. Why? Because they would be doing what they do on their property, shooting every and any buck that walks by and this will have an effect on the herd.

As far as location goes? Like I mentioned in my above posts, location has very little to do with the overall picture. ANY property across the nation could produce large bucks, it just takes time, patience, and dedication to get it to that point. Practicing QDMA and managing the habitat while waiting to shoot true mature bucks can take a piece of property from a field of spikes to a field of dreams. Proof is everywhere, look back through some of my game camera pictures over the past several years. I have photos of numerous large bucks that were all taken in Pennsylvania. The number of and size of bucks that I have got on camera hasn't always been present around here. Sure, the statewide antler restrictions and herd management have helped, but its more the fact that we have put time, money, and effort into the land and deer herd to get it this way. The hours and dollars spent planting food plots, the money spent putting in a supplemental feeding program throughout the year (with the exception of hunting season), the endless amount of immature bucks that have been passed up have all helped to turn the property and herd to the point it is now. You can pass this off as being lucky or what have you, but info on exactly how to manage MY property is something that can't be found in any book/magazine or on the internet. It takes atrue knowledge of the property and the herd todo this, and this is something that is aquired through YEARS ofactually getting out in the woods and scouting and doing the dirty work. You can make the same comments about me as you do aboutScott, but the fact is that not you, not anybody can come to my property having never been here and know the ins and outs of it. Sure, you could come over and hang a stand and maybe have a chance at a deer, but without the true knowledge that is aquired over years you wouldn't be able to do it year in and year out. Some things have to belearned over years, and they can't be learned over night.

As far as the others that post slammers every year, that is why I use the"ect.", I didn't feel like going through and mentioning every single one of these seasoned veterans that have figured out the who puzzle throughyears of experience.

As far as the "bozos on t.v." there is a little differance between hunting your own property and hunting a fenced ranch or an outfitter where mutiple people are paid to do nothing but study the deer and their patterns every single day. Sure, the hunters on those shows may not know a single thing about deer hunting, but the guides have spent years learning the deer, so that pretty much explains why the hunters are shooting the deer. It has little to do with location, it has everything to do with the fact that they are getting directed by people who have a true and thorough knowledge of the herd on that property.

Well let's see, I've probably shot somewhere around 60 bucks with a bow. You do the math. 50 x 60 LOL I couldn't really put an inch total on it... but it's more than 900.[8D]

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