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Old 12-23-2014, 08:39 AM
  #11  
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Winchester 209 primers are at the bottom of the heat list. As suggested, go with a magnum primer like the CCI or the Federal. This will give you a hotter burn and should burn off more of the powder.

I was at the range one day and I loaded and shot 24 loads without a patch and the accuracy was amazing. After the 24th load I had to run a patch down the barrel and was surprised at how clean the barrel was! Sure I could have kept shooting more loads without a patch!!!
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Old 12-23-2014, 08:58 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by BarnesAddict View Post
None. Simple.

But your primers just impress, especially the rings.

Is there something so special about a Knight, that it won't shoot a magnum primer and do it correctly?
Sure they will shoot Mag primers but what is the need? The plug was designed to shoot all primers equally well using BH-209 powder.

Why do you feel the need to shoot a Mag primer? It does nothing but fill the flash channel faster? It does not create greater velocitiy as many think and it does not burn any cleaner.

Here is a test I ran one day shooting different primers...


Last edited by sabotloader; 12-23-2014 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 12-23-2014, 09:39 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by sabotloader View Post
Sure they will shoot Mag primers but what is the need? The plug was designed to shoot all primers equally well using BH-209 powder.
Why do you feel the need to shoot a Mag primer? It does nothing but fill the flash channel faster? It does not create greater velocitiy as many think and it does not burn any cleaner.
Here is a test I ran one day shooting different primers...

Well what's the difference between the two primers and if there is no difference, why is most everyone shooting magnum primers, including the "top shots"? There's been many, not just a handful, of people that have had problems using just WIN209 primers, yet when they switched to a magnum primer, their problems went away. Although Western states that regular 209 primers will ignite BH, why then do they recommend magnum primers?

But they're all bad breech plugs, right???

The magnum primer is hotter and "can" provide higher velocities. Even the difference between F209A and CM's show different velocities that other's have shown, yet still provide identical group sizes at identical ranges. A couple reports have shown that the CCI209M will actually provide a flatter trajectory over the Federal 209M.

As far as your testing, what procedures did you use to eliminate variables, such as bullet seating force? Bullet seating pressure on BH will change the velocity, it can also affect other loose propellants velocities. Were all your primers, including the magnum primers ringed like those in your photo?

Like I originally stated in my very first post.........
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:47 AM
  #14  
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Simple answer is yes they are ringed as you call them. Take a brand new Win 209 and you will see its ringed also. That has nothing to do with what the fired primer looks like. The bottom of the primer will have a bit of black on it also. See the sides of the primer? Clean, no blowback.
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:55 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by sabotloader View Post
Why do you feel the need to shoot a Mag primer?
I had problems with my Knight Vision shooting BH209 powder. Kept getting miss fires and didn't know why. I ended up getting with the factory and gave them all my info. They said for me to use another primer and supported the CCI and Federal primers. They told me that the standard Winchester 209 primers were the coolest of the bunch. They said that the powder needed a hotter flash to ignite. I think the BP had something to do with problem also.

BH209 can be a finicky powder. I had to replace my CVA BP in my Apex to remain reliable. I do like the powder and will keep using it though.

Since going over to the other hotter primers, I have not had one problem.
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Old 12-23-2014, 10:57 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by BarnesAddict View Post
Well what's the difference between the two primers and if there is no difference, why is most everyone shooting magnum primers, including the "top shots"? There's been many, not just a handful, of people that have had problems using just WIN209 primers, yet when they switched to a magnum primer, their problems went away. Although Western states that regular 209 primers will ignite BH, why then do they recommend magnum primers?

But they're all bad breech plugs, right???

The magnum primer is hotter and "can" provide higher velocities. Even the difference between F209A and CM's show different velocities that other's have shown, yet still provide identical group sizes at identical ranges. A couple reports have shown that the CCI209M will actually provide a flatter trajectory over the Federal 209M.

As far as your testing, what procedures did you use to eliminate variables, such as bullet seating force? Bullet seating pressure on BH will change the velocity, it can also affect other loose propellants velocities. Were all your primers, including the magnum primers ringed like those in your photo?

Like I originally stated in my very first post.........
I am not sure everyone is using Mag primers. If you were to call Western they would tell you they recommend a Mag primer and opening the flash hole to .035 because of the breech plugs on the market. And yes for many years the real problem was in the BP design, to the point that Western contracted to have BH friendly plugs built for CVA rifles. If you have a breech plug designed to shoot BH then the Mag primer is a waste beside the fact that it will wear your BP much faster than a cooler primer.

Those people shooting a LRMP have already proved the fact that a Mag shotgun primer is not needed to get BH to ignite properly. Ron has conducted several tests in sub zero weather and pretty much proved the same thing. The military contracts brought about Mag shotgun primers to assure ignition of shotgun shells in Arctic like conditions.

Those that are having problems with W209 ignition probably do not have a BH modified plug - hence Westerns recommendation to use Mags.

The testing I did was not scientific for sure - but everything was done the same from shot-to-shot. Plus I should mention it was not the first time I did the same test nor was it the last time.

My primers were not ringed - if you look at the picture I think you can see that. Those are primers that have been shot in the pictured rifle.

Here is another set of primers shot from another rifle... They appear pretty clean to me also, but different rifle - different BP and bolt.



Even then was does the ring mean? Shotgun primers have a very wide tolerance in sizes. They do not have to be held to a tight tolerance to fit a shotgun shell. The European shot gun primers even have a wider tolerance, but still work just fine here in the states.

I think - but do not know for sure the lot number of W209 primers that GM was shooting may have been just a bit short in length allowing some gas escape resulting in the soot rings you are seeing. Still has nothing to do with the ignition of BH. The W209 provides way heated gas than is necessary for the ignition of BH if the plug is correct and clean.

If you look at this pic you can see the tolerances for shotgun primers are all over the board.



In all of this all I am saying is you don't need Mag primers if your breech plug is designed to shoot BH. If you choose to shoot Mag primers, that is really your choice, nothing you need to defend at all. We all make personal choices...
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Old 12-23-2014, 11:12 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by rafsob View Post
I had problems with my Knight Vision shooting BH209 powder. Kept getting miss fires and didn't know why. I ended up getting with the factory and gave them all my info. They said for me to use another primer and supported the CCI and Federal primers. They told me that the standard Winchester 209 primers were the coolest of the bunch. They said that the powder needed a hotter flash to ignite. I think the BP had something to do with problem also.

BH209 can be a finicky powder. I had to replace my CVA BP in my Apex to remain reliable. I do like the powder and will keep using it though.

Since going over to the other hotter primers, I have not had one problem.
Your Knight Vision plug was never designed to shoot BH. It still has the old design breech plug and even the flash hole was reduced in size to reduce blow back. I have modified several Vision plugs to be more BH friendly and they will shoot BH very well with a W209.

BH is a great powder if you like it never consider changing.

And in your case the hotter primer was needed for ignition - exactly what Western Powders was talking about.
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Old 12-23-2014, 11:28 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Omega45 View Post
Simple answer is yes they are ringed as you call them. Take a brand new Win 209 and you will see its ringed also. That has nothing to do with what the fired primer looks like. The bottom of the primer will have a bit of black on it also. See the sides of the primer? Clean, no blowback.
I never considered the manufactured ring around a W209 was the ring he was talking about. But since you mention it - I think that is really what he is talking about.

These are new un-shot primers I think you can see the primer case has the ring built in... it makes them easier to start on in a shot gun shell.

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Old 12-23-2014, 11:45 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Omega45 View Post
Simple answer is yes they are ringed as you call them. Take a brand new Win 209 and you will see its ringed also. That has nothing to do with what the fired primer looks like. The bottom of the primer will have a bit of black on it also. See the sides of the primer? Clean, no blowback.
Well one question answered. Only the WIN209 NEW primers I have on the bench have a ring. The CCI209 and the CCI209M do not. Sorry but my camera just won't focus that close, or the photo would be attached.

Some may get by with WIN209 primers, that's ok for them. However, many more can not and its well documented if one searches the different forums. Ask Western what they'd prefer you use..... Just as its known that a bullet seated tightly provides better and more consistent ignition. But, its always the same handful of people that say the magnum primer "isn't necessary" or, "there's no difference", or "I've done testing". Well that may work for them under the conditions that they shoot or test but, I've yet to see testing by shooters, that provide loading data eliminating variables. Using a volume load and guessing on bullet seating pressures, would not be a great scientific test, specifically with BH, to many variables.

Cayugad on another forum that has shot WIN209's also states: If you remember a few things about the powder, remember this; the hotter the 209 primer the better......." "Also a tight fitting projectile is needed and the powder must be compressed tightly."
Shooters Forum 10/6-7/10.

Another test that shows different results with the different primers and light loads indicates almost a 50fps difference between magnum and standard primers. NORTH AMERICAN MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

Shot-Shell Primers
Federal 209A..............380 f.p.s.
CCI 209M...................378 f.p.s.
Remington STS..........344 f.p.s.
CCI 209......................338 f.p.s.
Fiocchi........................337 f.p.s.
Winchester 209..........333 f.p.s.
Mildest........Cheddite.....................326 f.p.s.


Article in Deer and Deer Hunting:

"..........I shot a .50-caliber Knight DISC Extreme 50 times using a 110-grain charge of Blackhorn 209 behind a saboted 300-grain Harvester Muzzleloading Scorpion PT Gold. I allowed four to five minutes between shots, but never wiped the bore. All 50 shots printed inside of 1.6 inches at 100 yards.To get this kind of performance with Blackhorn 209 requires using a very hot, magnum-strength No. 209 primer such as the CCI 209M or Federal 209A.With some breechplug designs that feature a flash hole of around .035-inch diameter, standard-strength primers such as the Remington STS, CCI 209 and Winchester 209 primers usually give excellent ignition of this powder. However, to reduce blowback, some in-line rifle manufacturers have gone to smaller-diameter flash channels in their breech plugs.Some of the Knight plugs now have a hole as small as .027-inch, and some of the T/C breechplugs have a flash hole thatís around .029-inch in diameter. With these, standard strength No. 209 primers can fail to put enough fire into the powder charge to ensure immediate ignition. However, the use of a magnum-strength primer produces more than enough heat and flame."

I've always stated, if it works for you than that's great. However it won't work for everyone and it shouldn't be made as though its always true. I guess I'll address it where others may not. Some of the same shooters on other forums that we're all part of, will say it flat out, if you want consistent ignition in all rifles designed to shoot BH, shoot one of the magnum primers.
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Old 12-23-2014, 11:48 AM
  #20  
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LMRP's are much hotter than a magnum 209 primer which has more pressure than LMRP.
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