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Old 12-23-2014, 12:00 PM
  #21  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Originally Posted by sabotloader View Post
Your Knight Vision plug was never designed to shoot BH. It still has the old design breech plug and even the flash hole was reduced in size to reduce blow back. I have modified several Vision plugs to be more BH friendly and they will shoot BH very well with a W209.

BH is a great powder if you like it never consider changing.

And in your case the hotter primer was needed for ignition - exactly what Western Powders was talking about.
What you are saying sounds right. From wha the company was saying it sounded just this. The BP was too long and really correct for the BH209 powder. Now I must say that I don't have the original BP in my Knight Vision. it sone of the guns produced just before they went out of business. It was even marketed with the new BP. With that said, it is still a very long and narrow BP.

As of now, it is performing well with the hotter primers. I will try the win209's at the rate just for the hell of it and see how they perform.

Thanks Sabotloader!!!
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Old 12-23-2014, 01:35 PM
  #22  
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sticks3

I really should have asked if you are shooting a FPJ (Red Plastic Jacket) or a NFPJ (Bare Primer) breech plug... That can make a big difference... With the FPJ you may need the Mag primers because the jackets leak so much.
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Old 12-23-2014, 01:42 PM
  #23  
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Thanks for all the responses guys! I read on here a lot but don't post much. Sabotloader mine is a 209 bare primer. Nfpj

Another thing I've noticed more that you guys have brought it up is the dirty primers. Blowback. Seems like some times they are completely clean like the pictures above and other times they are filthy. I'd say about 50/50. Any answers on the cause of that?

Thanks again guys! Any info for a rookie will be appreciated!
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Old 12-23-2014, 02:24 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by sticks3 View Post
Thanks for all the responses guys! I read on here a lot but don't post much. Sabotloader mine is a 209 bare primer. Nfpj
Great! in my book that is the best option.

Another thing I've noticed more that you guys have brought it up is the dirty primers. Blowback. Seems like some times they are completely clean like the pictures above and other times they are filthy. I'd say about 50/50. Any answers on the cause of that?

Thanks again guys! Any info for a rookie will be appreciated!
That is a fairly easy fix... theoretically if/when you close the bolt you should actually crush the W209 primer just slightly. If that happens you should not get any blowback at all.

And as I suggested in an earlier post the tolerances of primers is pretty wide so I think you have a bunch of primers that are somewhat short allowing some blow back to occur.

Another thing that could cause the problem is that you might not be getting the bolt completely closed. Especially since the rifle is new to you. When you get a chance put a primer in place and close the bolt - you may feel some resistance as the primer runs up against the bottom of the primer pocket - but continue to push down until the bolt handle bottoms out on the receiver. When I put a primer in I close the bolt till it is snug and then tap the handle with the palm of my hand to make sure I have the 'crush'.

Also you might go outside or in the garage as I do and load a primer close the bolt verifying that it is all the way down - and pop the primer - it should come out clean.

Whoops - another thing to try open your bolt and close it without a primer - when you close it you will feel the bolt handle hit the receiver and stop... you should get that same feeling with a primer it just will not feel like a sharp STOP...

mike
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Old 12-23-2014, 04:22 PM
  #25  
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Is there something so special about a Knight, that it won't shoot a magnum primer and do it correctly?
It has nothing to do with mag on non mag. I don't like the regular CCIs either. They come out dirty. When a primer comes out dirty its brutally obvious all the energy from the primer is NOT going to the powder.

Its called head space (for lack of a better term) and the Win209 simply fits better and has been 100% reliable for me in no less than 12 bottle of BH209 and roughly 7 DISC based NFPJ based Knight rifles.

I cant see any reason to use a mag primer in a Knight/Lehigh NFPJ plug unless they fit better than a Win209 which to this day i havent seen one that does.

My ULA is just the opposite, it uses CCIs. Either the mag or non mag. A Win209 is just too long to close the bolt. There is really nothing "special" about it as you preferred to call it. They are just designed using a different primer.

Lehigh probably chose to use the Win209 just because it was the longest and you would have the least amount of problems if a primer was on the long side. Crushing a primer too far could even be hazardous.

Im very surprised someone who has been around on the forums so long needs this level of explanation considering its been gone over at length numerous times.
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Old 12-23-2014, 05:53 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by BarnesAddict View Post
Although BH IS CLEANER, it still leaves soot in the barrel. Its cleaner burning, as I doesn't create crud rings as other substitutes do. Also in many cases (not all), a maximum charge provides lessor accuracy/groups than a less than maximum charge. It appears you've somewhat proven that. Most do not swab between shots, because there's no crud rings to deal with. Although tight barrels may make the second or third round load harder.

Now here's a statement I'm going to make, that's going to get under the skin of all the EXPERTS of muzzleloading......

Change from the Win209's to one of the magnum primers, either the CCI209M or Federal 209A.
BH209 is by far the best black powder substitute for inline muzzleloaders currently being made. You can easily adapt any breech plug to use it effectively. A 5/32 flame channel drilled and tapped to fit a ventliner pretty much sums it up. I'll shoot BH209 with 410 primers let alone winchesters and have with Lehigh breech plugs.

My suggestion is quit reading all the different opinions and philosophies on the Internet and stick to the basics. And in all honesty, if you really don't understand it by now, you probably never will.
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Old 12-23-2014, 05:56 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Gm54-120 View Post
It has nothing to do with mag on non mag. I don't like the regular CCIs either. They come out dirty. When a primer comes out dirty its brutally obvious all the energy from the primer is NOT going to the powder.
Its called head space (for lack of a better term) and the Win209 simply fits better and has been 100% reliable for me in no less than 12 bottle of BH209 and roughly 7 DISC based NFPJ based Knight rifles.
I cant see any reason to use a mag primer in a Knight/Lehigh NFPJ plug unless they fit better than a Win209 which to this day i havent seen one that does.
My ULA is just the opposite, it uses CCIs. Either the mag or non mag. A Win209 is just too long to close the bolt. There is really nothing "special" about it as you preferred to call it. They are just designed using a different primer.
Lehigh probably chose to use the Win209 just because it was the longest and you would have the least amount of problems if a primer was on the long side. Crushing a primer too far could even be hazardous.
Im very surprised someone who has been around on the forums so long needs this level of explanation considering its been gone over at length numerous times.
I'm not disagreeing at all with primer length and/or crushed primers. I am though disagreeing with some of your comments about "no differences". If one reviews the in depth research others have done and the primer manufacturers, its clear the magnum primers are hotter and have more pressure than a WIN209.

The magnum primers burn hotter, ignite the propellant faster and at a much faster rate than the WIN209. In "most" cases, this means better ignition with more consistency. Every test shows that. Thus the reason Western recommends either the F209A or C209M primers. The pressure variations are more consistent with lower standard deviations with magnum primers. Others who have tested standard to magnum primers point out there could be deviation of between 20 to 40 milliseconds delay with standard primers, where magnum primers reduce that delay and "smooth them out". It is also pointed out in many tests, including Federal's, that magnum primers are also more reliable in very cold weather and humid conditions.

Someplace, I thought I had an independent lab's testing of the different primers that showed the exact pressures and temps of each of the major primer brands. IF I can find that lab test, I'll post it. As I remember the test results, they coincide with all the other testing done by manufacturers of primers and those of other independent tests.

The data provided by Western and other independent lab testing all say the same identical thing, providing the same information. The magnum primers are more consistent, more reliable when it comes to temperature variations and humidity and have lower standard deviations in pressures. That said, I'm not saying that a WIN209 will not ignite BH209. I'm not saying that they won't work in a specific owners rifle or rifles. However if a shooter wants to eliminate some of the contributing factors, I agree with the experts in the field. Use the magnum primers.

"Im very surprised someone who has been around on the forums so long needs this level of explanation considering its been gone over at length numerous times."..................... I've pointed out my reasoning, I think pretty clearly, having used the data provided by the manufacturers, labs and in independent primer testing.
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Old 12-23-2014, 06:01 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Grouse45 View Post
BH209 is by far the best black powder substitute for inline muzzleloaders currently being made. You can easily adapt any breech plug to use it effectively. A 5/32 flame channel drilled and tapped to fit a ventliner pretty much sums it up. I'll shoot BH209 with 410 primers let alone winchesters and have with Lehigh breech plugs.

My suggestion is quit reading all the different opinions and philosophies on the Internet and stick to the basics. And in all honesty, if you really don't understand it by now, you probably never will.
My suggestion, would be to learn to step out of the "basics box" and read the published reports by both the primer manufacturers and independent labs. I'll trust that data over "I can shoot 100yds" any day.
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Old 12-23-2014, 08:09 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by BarnesAddict View Post
My suggestion, would be to learn to step out of the "basics box" and read the published reports by both the primer manufacturers and independent labs. I'll trust that data over "I can shoot 100yds" any day.
That's ashame, but good luck!!!
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Old 12-23-2014, 08:27 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by BarnesAddict View Post
My suggestion, would be to learn to step out of the "basics box" and read the published reports by both the primer manufacturers and independent labs. I'll trust that data over "I can shoot 100yds" any day.
Do you think all the published manufacturers reports are accurate? You don't think they might fluff up the reports to sell their product?
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