Seems as if the Savage is what I will be going with. Thanks to all that replied as I have learned alot.

I dont understand though what the rub is with state DNRs and some hunters about using smokeless powder in the Savage versus triple 7, pyrodex and the like. Seems to me it loads the same, so where is the "advantage" other than less mess/corrosion?

Like I said, the advantages are mostly economic and housekeeping. The max loads with smokeless don't exceed the velocity from 150gr charges of powders like T7 by enough of a margin to be meaningful. But smokeless is MUCH cheaper to shoot, not only because it's generally less/lb but also because you use so much less per shot. I can get the same velocity with 45gr of N-110 as 150gr of T7.

Secondly, cleanup is MUCH easier. I only take out my breechplug out for cleaning every 50-100 shots. After I get it sighted in for the season, I don't clean the bore at all until the season is over. I also never swab the bore between shots. I've shot as many as 50 shots in one range session without swabbing, and the last shot loads ar easily as the first.

But in terms of advantage in the field, followup shots are no faster. Most people can shoot 2-3 shots with non-smokeless powder before swabbing is necessary, so swabbing before loading a followup shot isn't strictly necessary, and since smokeless powder loads the same as non-smokeless, the follow-up capability is identical. In fact, those who shoot pelletized powder have an advantage over all others because pellets are faster handling (does that mean we should ban pellets?). The Savage only gains an advantage if one needs to load and shoot more than 2 shots in rapid succession because of lack of fouling, but how often does one get a third shot at deer. By the time a third shot is loaded the deer you missed with the first two will be in the next zip code. That just muzzleloading. If one needs more than 1-2 shots, I'd suggest they sell their ML and get a BAR. Or they could just learn to shoot!

Some anti-smokeless folks claim that the Savage is too "flat-shooting". The truth is that, while the Savage can get a 300gr bullet going about 2300fps, the trajectory at all practical ranges is so close to a non-smokeless load of 150gr of T7 with the same bullet (about 2200fps) as to be inconsequential. I suppose that the only true advantage is that many Savage shooters are more willing to shoot full throttle loads because the reduced ejecta (due to less powder mass) significantly reduced recoil compared to "magnum" T7 loads. I know I don't like getting the snot kicked out of me with big T7 loads, but full house N-110 loads are noticably softer shooting, relativily speaking (it'll still get your attention).

If you decide to get the Savage, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I'd recommend the laminate stock version. The plastic composite stocks are functional (and cheaper), but looks kindof crappy. The laminate wood is attractive and tough. I think that Savage introduced a laminate thumbhold stock recently, which is nice if you like a thumbhole stock (I do). Mine is a conventional stock design.

Mike

I would agree with Mike, I would not get the plastic composite stock. It is the worst thing about the Savage. the thumbhole is a lot more weight, but I am a tree stand hunter so it makes little difference.
If I were buying again, I would by the laminate non-thumbhole stock, they look nice and are very solid.
You will not be sorry if you get a Savage, I love the accuracy of this rifle. Chap Gleason

I just bought an MLII and love the rifle. BUT if I had known Florida was going to outlaw smokeless powder I would not have bought it. Too hard to clean using other substitutes.

Lots of good points from driftrider. I would only want to add the following: True you can get similar velocities as standard Savage loads with BP/Substitutes and 150gr of powder, but hardly anyone ever does simply because the recoil is painful. Most folk will use 80 to 100 grain of BP/Subs and have a velocity of only 1600 to 1800fps to have a pleasant shooting load with the same bullet.

My standard load of 43gr of 4759 pushes a 250gr bullet about 2250fps. It is relatively mild in recoil. If I did the same with BP/Subs I would have to use 150+gr of powder, which adds about 110gr to the total weight pushed out of the barrel. That is like shooting a 360gr bullet at 2250fps and that just plain hurts! If I really want to, I can change to 4198 powder and easily get 2600fps out of that same 250gr bullet with a similar recoil to the 2200fps BP load. If I really wanted to go crazy (I don't) there are safe loads that will push that same 250gr bullet to near 3000 fps with the Savage, but unless you really enjoy pain, what the heck do you need it for?

The cleanup is much easier and the cost per shot lower with the Savage. It is more consistent shot-to-shot because of the lower fouling and if you forget to clean it after your last range/hunting trip you don't find a corrosion build-up when you finally get around to it.

Lastly, and most important to me, when you shoot a deer at dawn with a bit of fog and no wind you don't have to wait two minutes after your shot to see which way the deer might have gone if it did not per chance drop in its tracks. This happened to me last year and was the most compelling reason for me to go smokeless. I can not endure the thought of losing an injured animal because I couldn't see if it had been hit or not and don't have a clue as to which direction to search.

As far as legislation on smokeless powder is concerned, Florida is an anomaly. Most of the states that have recently changed rules have gone the other way, taking the powder used out of their regulations except that it be a type recommended by the manufacturer. If we make our choice only on what rules might be changed in the future we would all be buying nothing but long bows and flintlocks.

As Mike said, "If you decide to get the Savage, I don't think you'll be disappointed. . . . "

Ideaman,

Thanks for the reply. You mentioned the savage is difficult to clean if not using smokeless powder. I was wondering how this compares to cleaning other muzzleloaders that dont use smokeless such as a knight or T/C. Thanks.

Scott

Driftrider,

Lots of good info in your reply thanks. Also great point about being able to see the deer more quickly after the shot. That I never thought of and 1 more reason to get a savage.

Scott

The TC Omega is easier since you can take the barrel right off the gun. I would NOT shoot BP or subs in the Savage since it is harder to clean a bolt gun. Just my opinion.
Chap Gleason

Design of the 10II is smokeless powder no question. I agree chap, especially without installing a 3rd pillar, asremoval of the rear action screw to completely clean would result in nothing but abig headache with a walkin' POI. While I use an ez-tool for removal of my breech if I were shooting subs or bp I would want more access and attend to the bolt/ bolt face on each cleaning. Having a Ml season that is min. 1 month in duration here means cleaningduring the hunting seasonis a real possibility the savage without smokeless powder wouldn't be very appealling to me and would most definately pick a different platform.