savage muzzleloaders
 

Greetings all,

I am a rifle hunter thinking about getting in to muzzleloading. I know very little about it other than what I have read on-line. I was hoping to get some advice on how to start.

I am a fan of savage rifles so naturally I am thinking about their lineof muzzleloaders as my first option of getting into it. I was hoping for some advice on that particular gun, and any advice in general you may have. I already did a search for savage in past topics but couldnt find any. Thanks to all for your time

Scott

RE: savage muzzleloaders
 

If you decided to go with a Savage 10ML-II, you would be making an excellent choice IMO. I have one and I absolutely love it, so much so that in the 2 years I've had it I haven't shot any of my other ML's. I shoot smokeless powder in mine exclusively, but since Iowa doesn't restrict the use of smokeless in a ML, that's fine, but even if the law said I had to shoot the dirty stuff, my Savage would still be my "go-to" ML.

Check to see if it's legal in your state to hunt with smokeless powder. If so, you can't go wrong with Accurate Arms XMR-5744 powder and a 240-300gr .45cal sabot bullet in an MMP sabot. I shoot 250gr Hornady XTP's or SST's, but I've heard that Barnes ML bullets shoot very well too.

My current pet load is 41gr (3.1cc Lee Dipper) of 5744 and a 250gr XTP. It shoots 1.5" groups average. It's not the fastest load the Savage is capable of (or other "Magnum" ML for that matter), but it shoots very well, and recoil is mild. I'd estimate the MV would be in the 1600-1800fps range (.454 Casull velocities), which is plenty for deer to 150 yards.

I've written extensively about the 10ml-II here. Do a search for "10ML" or "Savage ML" or "smokeless" in this forum, even using my handle as a search parameter, to get a lot more info. I'm a huge fan of the Savage itself, and of smokeless muzzleloading. I will not go back to BP, T7 and the other dirty, hygroscopic and corrosive powders.

I bought mine online at Natchez Shooters Supply (http://www.natchezss.com). They carry the full line of 10ML-II's at good prices. Mine is the top end version in stainless and laminate wood stock. It was about $550. Natchez will ship to your door since the 10ML-II is a ML and not subject to FFL laws.

You won't go wrong with the Savage.

Mike

RE: savage muzzleloaders
 

I just bought a Savage 10ML2 this year, May 1, 2007, have not hunted with it yet, but i am sure it is a shooter from my bullet selection, which is documented here:

http://www.the-gleasons.com/this_is_my_savage_10_ml_page.htm

I have the SS with a 3x9 Busnell Elite 3200 scope, tupperware stock, Warne Steele rings and I shoot AA 5744, 44g in it. You can't go wrong with the Savage, they shoot 1.5" at 100 yards out of the box. They will shoot BP or subs, but it is realy not designed for that. I love theSavage so far because of it's accuracy.The best Source of Savage info is here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm

read al these articles:

SAVAGE 10ML-II SERIES RIFLES:[*]A Closer Look at Savage Accuracy Loads (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]An Open Letter to Ron Coburn (Letter by Randy Wakeman)[*]Barnes 275 Grain XPB and the Savage 10ML-II (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Bullets for Deer Hunting with the Savage 10ML-II (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Important Savage 10ML-II "DO and DON'T" (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Instant Slamification: The Savage 10-ML Story (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Lethality of the Savage 10ML-II (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]The Magnificent Savage Breechplug (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]NEW Savage 10ML-II Thumbhole Stock for 2007 (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]New to Muzzleloading & the Savage 10ML-II? Here's the Accessories You Need (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Notes on Savage 10ML-II Load Development (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Pet Loads for the Savage 10ML-II (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Programming for Savage 10ML-II Success (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Quick Path to Savage 10ML-II Deer Hunting Loads (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]The Royal Road to Savage 10ML-II Success (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Safety and the Savage 10ML-II (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Savage 10ML-II: On Primers and Heat (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Savage 10ML-II "Quick Start" (Instructions by Randy Wakeman)[*]Savage 10ML-II, the Recoil-less Muzzleloader (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Savage 10ML-II Troubleshooting (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Savage 10ML-II FAQ (Questions with answers by Randy Wakeman)[*]What Every New 10ML-II Owner Should Know (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Why Doesn't the Savage 10ML-II Kick? (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]Your Savage Runs on Ping-Pong Balls (Article by Randy Wakeman)[*]
Randy Wakeman, www.randywakeman.com also has a lot of content. The best source for day to day 10ML2 info isDoug's Savage Board: http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage

The tupperware stock, the removal of the frontscrew and the cleaning of the breech plug are my only negatives. I have a Knight Disc, my first ML, I hunted with it 5 years, then I bought a TC Omega and hunted with it 3 years, now I have mySavage. I like them all, and they are all good shooters, I would say the Savage is the most accurate, but the TC and Knight are right behind it, and not by much, maybe .5 inch. Your going to have to buy some powder scales, but other than that it is pretty close to inline ML hunting (1 killing shot), only you don't have to clean your gun every time you shoot it.Best Wishes on yourSavage selection.
Chap Gleason

RE: savage muzzleloaders
 

Mike and Chap,

Great info. Helps me alot and thanks. Mike I noticed u mentioned restrictions on smokeless powder, is that a pretty common thing?

Again thanks for the replies...

Scott

RE: savage muzzleloaders
 

While I do not own an Savage ML-10II they are a very interesting rifle. I think I would really enjoy owning one, if only to take it to my range and plink all day. Some of the range reports from people on this forum leave little doubt as to the ability of the rifle to put lead down range in a very deadly accurate manner.

The smokeless issue is one part of the rifle that bothers me. Not that I object to hunting with smokeless powder, as I do not. I personally could care less what kind of muzzleloader someone hunts with. But just recently, Florida I believe it was, enacted legislation that made it illegal to use smokeless powder where before it was. These kind of trends are alarming and not just in the smokeless part of the sport. Idaho last year enacted some major changes that greatly impacted their muzzleloading hunters. Minnesota was going to or did, I can not remember. Actually I think Minnesota was about to and then because of the upheaval they decided not to, but I could be wrong there.

All I am getting at is, when other groups of muzzleloading peopleor non hunting people with a different agenda then many of us, start to pressure lawmakers who have little or know knowledge of muzzleloading technologies and day to day use of them. We can and will see some major legislation in states that will restrict what can be shot, or used in the muzzleloading sport. Some models of rifle made to shoot certain projectiles or powders will be effected. Keep this in mind. I personally feel the first area they will attack is smokeless powders. after that it will be sabots and non lead projectiles. Scopes are a give and take from state to state already.

Welcome to the sport. Check your local laws.Handle as many rifles as you can. And then decide what you feel best meets your muzzleloading needs. Also do not shy away from the traditional aspect of the sport. While they are a different way to hunt, they add a lot of excitement to the already rewarding world of muzzleloading.

RE: savage muzzleloaders
 

It's a state-by-state thing. Some state DNR's have bent to the "traditionalist" lobby and disallowed the use of smokeless powders in a ML for hunting. I personally believe that these guys are elitists who want to keep "their" ML seasons exclusive to them, them being those who choose to hunt with open-sighted sidelocks with round or maxi-balls. They want the woods to themselves and fear that inlines, scopes, sabot bullets and, God forbid, smokeless powder, might make ML'ing attractive to a new generation of hunters raised with shotguns or CF rifles. Of course, these would be the same guys who would lament the destruction of hunting rights due to decreased numbers of young hunters to fight the militant anti-gun and animal rights lobbies. My opinion is that, if it stuffs from the front, it's really no different than any other ML. Smokeless offers little advantage performance wise over 150gr "magnum" loads because of the limitations of sabot strength. The primary advantages are economic (smokeless is MUCH cheaper to shoot) and in terms of housekeeping (MUCH cleaner, and totally non-corrosive). Unfortunately, a lot of DNR bureaucrats have bought into the false rumors and fear-mongering about smokeless powder propagated by the above traditionalists and by the BP industry (Knight, T/C, CVA, and Hodgdon [the makers of T7 and Pyrodex]), that see the Savage as a serious threat to their market shares.

Check your DNR regs to see if smokeless powder is legal to hunt with in your state. Some state don't allow smokeless at all in a ML, some restrict the use of smokeless ML's to the CF rifle season, and some states (like Iowa, where I live) don't restrict it at all. But like I said before, even if Iowa said I couldn't hunt with smokeless powder, I'd still hunt with my Savage (using Goex BP probably, as I've learned to despise the T7 crud ring).

Mike

As a side note, before I get a bunch of flack from guys who shoot sidelocks or roundballs...I'm NOT saying that all people who choose to use a more traditional rifle are as described above. I just think that those who are among that group create tension and division when we can afford none. You can bet that the anti-hunting crowd loves to see any style or method of hunting restricted or banned and any number of potential hunters turned away from the sport by these restrictions imposed by the very hunters themselves. I say come-as-you-are, and bring a friend/spouse/child. The more of us there are now, the more likely our sport will survive for the next generation.

RE: savage muzzleloaders
 

I would agree with you, Cayugad, my growing up in the Sport of MLing was inline with pellets, I would never had tried a FL if I had not had the MLing experience with a inline rifle. I see that FG has grown up to FLing with a .54 RB also, as have many others that I have read about on this forum. Many on this forum will only use a MLer in rifle season, we enjoy the challenge of 1 well placed shot. So I would say that MLing is a lot of fun, like archery, but has it own little specialized knowledge to make it fun, like bullet selection, swabing and "working up a load" to just name a few.
Chap

RE: savage muzzleloaders
 

driftrider - I have been wanting to ask a Savage owner. How many shots have you taken from your Savage with non smokeless powder, and what kind of accuracy and performance do you get? Like I said (and I agree with some of the things you said above) I have no problem with smokeless powder. The rifle loads the same as my Hawkins. Other then what fires it and what comes out the end of it.

But I was thinking of getting a Savage and then shooting non smokeless powder out of it. I am not sure I would get into weighing out all those powder charges in advance. Although I have on occasion. I am more of a ... what shall I shoot today, grab a rifle, and head to the range. I do not want to sit down and weigh charges first... But I would be interested in the Savage performance with say Triple Se7en powders.

RE: savage muzzleloaders
 

Cayugad,

I've used both VV N-110 and AA 5744. I prefer 5744. The N-110 will give higher velocities (I'd chronied 2350fps with 45gr of N-110 and 250gr SST's before a sabot hit the face of my chronograph and shattered it[:@]), but the 5744 is more accurate and less temperature sensitive, igniting much more easily and providing comsistant performance in both hot and cold weather. A good fast N-110 load at 50 degrees will blow sabots at 90. And a good load at for summer may be reluctant to light off below freezing. 5744 is a double base powder with a high 20% nitroglycerine content, making it easy to light and burns consistantly at all temps, and that makes for good accuracy and "all-weather" performance.

I've probably shot 300-400 shots (I don't really keep track[&:]) in the two years I've had mine. I routinely achieve 1.5MOA accuracy without being overly scrupulous about my loading technique. I've also had many sub-1" groups, but realistic average groups are more like 1.5". Also, I don't premeasure or weigh my charges before I go to the range. I use the Lee Dippers ($6 for the entire set anywhere handloading supplies are sold) and dip out each shot at the range. Good accuracy is much easier to achieve with 5744. My rifle is more picky with N-110. I like the fact that I can concentrate on shooting technique at the range, and not swabbing/cleaning technique. Smokeless is also much less expensive, which allows me to shoot more.

As far as the performance with T7, I couldn't tell you as I've never shot anything but smokeless in my Savage. I, personally, don't like T7. I've used it extensively in other ML's, and I think the performance and accuracy is fine, but I HATE the crud rings that I always got in every rifle I used it in, and the hassle of preventing siezed breechplugs. I also very much like having the ability to sight in my rifle and leave the barrel as-is when I go hunting, confident that it'll shoot to the intended POA when I need it to. Do that with BP, Pyrodex or T7, and you'll be scrubbing rust out of your bore by the end of the second day guaranteed.

I know you do a lot of recreational shooting with your ML's, and I think if you tried smokeless you'd come to love it. The Savage is an excellent rifle too.

Mike

RE: savage muzzleloaders
 

cayugad,I concur. If we are going to have and KEEP a seperate muzzleloader season they have to draw the line somewhere; I would rather not have it go to the point where they made use go back to Iron sights and side hammers. Or worse yet eliminate the seperate Muzzle loader season, I know their are some people who dont believe that could happened, but I do. Lee