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Muzzleloaders

Old 12-17-2004, 08:09 AM
  #1  
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Default Muzzleloaders

Strut's post got me thinking about so many times I shoot deer with my muzzlelaoder and they leave no blood/sign. Only to find them and see that they were hit hard and pretty much right on.

How many guys have had this happen? Any theories why?

My dad is a great shot and he is 0 for 3 on muzzloader does this year. Nothing to track and body searches don't lead to anything either. We both know what we are doing in the woods and tracking but this no sign stuff with a muzzloader has been happening for years.

Any thoughts?

Greg
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Old 12-17-2004, 09:13 AM
  #2  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: Muzzleloaders

Every deer that I have shot with a ML left a good blood trail.
Are you geting a exit wound?
Where are they being hit?
What bullet ,load and range ?
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Old 12-17-2004, 10:45 AM
  #3  
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Default RE: Muzzleloaders

What caliber you using ? and what amount of powder and type bullit ?? Most of the time the deer fall right down or dont go more then 30 yards, I shoot a 50 cal,with 100 gr of powder and 295 gr bullits
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Old 12-17-2004, 11:07 AM
  #4  
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Default RE: Muzzleloaders

Gryan,

I know what you are talking about. I took two deer last year using PR bullets dead center. I recovered the deer but neither shot passed through and left little or no blood. The was from 20 yards with a Knight Disc Extreme .50 stainless thumbhole stock with 100 grains of triple 7.

This year I switched to 250 gr. Knight red hots and they were much better. Out of the three deer I took this year only one left a good blood trail because it was spraying each time it's heart beat. It was aged at 6 1/2 and ran 125yds with a money shot right in the heart. The other two were piled up within 50 yards with just a few drops of blood.

I shot three additional with my 30-06 and there is always a huge blood trail. All of my hits have been heart/lung shots I usually average between 5 to 10 deer per year between bow, gun, and ML and the ML has the poorest blood trails of all three. We practice QDM and are trying like hell to cut down our doe population. Between our neighboring parcel and ours (850 acres) we took 54 deer last year and just under 60 this year. The area will probably be earn a buck next year due to the size of the herd.

I don't know why this is, it doesn't make sense, but I know exactly what you are talking about. There were many threads on this last year in the muzzleloader forum. Specifically on non-pass through hits being more common than not.

Cybersniper
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Old 12-17-2004, 11:43 AM
  #5  
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Default RE: Muzzleloaders

i have never used a muzzleloader but it don't seem to have many benefits except for those states that have a muzzleloading only season
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Old 12-17-2004, 11:44 AM
  #6  
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Default RE: Muzzleloaders

I shoot 50 cal. with 265 grain sabots. 90 gr.of pyrodex pellets. I used to shoot a TC hawkin until last year. Now I shoot a black diamond inline. My dad still shoots the hawkins with 100 gr. of 3-f and 290 gr in 54 cal.

It is just weird. They are all hit in the heart lung shoulder area. (even those hit elsewhere don't bleed much) Sometimes, you can see they are hit by the way they run or whatever but there is very little if any blood. This year, I shot one through the base of the neck with the inline and she dropped in her tracks. There was no blood where she lay. And I let her lay for about fifteen minutes until the other deer left without being spooked. NOT A DROP OF BLOOD. I thought there would be a pool under her. I think most of our shots pass through but leave nothing. Slugs from the shotgun, buckshot, and arrows leave huge amounts of blood. The ML often nothing. Just strange.

Greg
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Old 12-17-2004, 01:52 PM
  #7  
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Default RE: Muzzleloaders

My experiences with inlines is small entrance and small exit unless they meet heavy media like bone. IMO the problem lies in expecting a copper bullet that is pushed at 1500-1800fps that in all reality needs another 1000fps to create the kind of performance it is design for. I continue to use them b/c they print snowmen and haven't lost an animal when using them. In terms of game performance I have found heavier softer grain bullets pushed at ML velocities produce large wound channels and more blood on the dirt (not lots but more). The only downside is longer range ballistics and often a drop in inherit accuracy is resulted. This fall I took 2 deer with the 250 gr SST pushed by 100 gr loose T7. Doe was 171 yards (LRF) mid double lung she limped 30 yards maybe meager blood trail, once opened up lungs just split in two and what blood was not allowed out the holes I suspect - virtually no difference in entrance and exit. The second deer a large bodied buck at 75 yards (same load combo) heavy quarter, bullet entered the ribs taking out lungs before exiting in front of the opposite shoulder he never moved more than a couple of steps. In this case lungs again seperated and the exit hole was 1 1/2" diameter because it met some heavier media, I found the copper jacket in the opposite hide the core passed through. Performance was virtually the same as my previous load of 240 XTP. I bought into the concept of the plastic tip bullet expanding more under lower velocities creating more of a wound channel but IME and others I have talked with that isn't the case! It is still under the required velocity to force good expansion of the projectile. Here is why I say this same bullet and load combo was fired into another deer this year range was inside of 20 yards, face on shot, bullet not only expanded better it pentrated a long ways finding it tuck along the spine of the deer and noticed it shed a lot of mass in it's travels (around 60% was retained). I wish I could compare that with a 100 yard shot but I can't as I don't have any recovered bullets. It is just theory but at this point the only one I can come up...might be totally out to lunch who knows!

I will continue to use the SST b/c the performance what i am use to and I gained in accuracy and long range trajectory...however the search for the best of both worlds will continue as usual.
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Old 12-17-2004, 02:34 PM
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Default RE: Muzzleloaders

ORIGINAL: treehunter

i have never used a muzzleloader but it don't seem to have many benefits except for those states that have a muzzleloading only season
Well other than the obvious extra hunting time, I live in a shotgun only state. I find I get better range (150+ yds vs. 100 max yds shotgun) and better accuracy. Also there is just something about knowing you only get one shot so you better make it count. That and the smell of the smoke, ahhh there is nothing like it! It is also really neat to see all those sparks fly when you fire at close to the end of legal daylight. Anymore, I only use my shotgun when we are push hunting. If I am still / stand hunting I take my muzzleloader all through the season. The last 4 deer I have killed were all muzzleloader and I haven't even been out for muzzleloader only season yet.

As far as a blood trail, I use 100gr. pyrodex powder and 295 powerbelt hollow point bullets. About 1/2 of my shots pass through but I have only had a couple leave a good blood trail. With one I shot last year I could see blood spraying out as he ran through my scope. But for the most part, I get very little blood but it is trackable. These bullets retain about 60 percent of their original weight from the slugs I have been able to recover. They do mushroom out very nicely and do a ton of internal damage whether or not they pass through. One thing I have noticed though, I have never had to go more than 50 yards from point of impact to collect my deer. They just don't go very far. I have had to track quite a bit with a well hit shotgun (copper solid) slug though. From what I have read on these boards, most people who have complained about very small amounts of tracking blood never had to track the animal anyways as they never went over 50 yards. I guess I would rather see them drop close to where they were shot and not leave any blood, than have a lot of blood but have to track them all over the woods!
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Old 12-17-2004, 03:47 PM
  #9  
Fork Horn
 
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Default RE: Muzzleloaders

Davidmor,

You're correct, Even though there is usually little or no blood, the deer is usually piled up within 50 yards.

You also hit it on the head with an answer to treehunter. Another season of hunting, A hell of a lot more challenge, and you only get one chance to make it right.

My muzzleloader kicks less than my shotgun and is much better at long range shots.
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Old 12-17-2004, 06:05 PM
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Default RE: Muzzleloaders

I also shoot these dead center sabots since last year. Since I have only took 1 deer with them I will leave my conclusions blank. The reason for going to these was the accuracy. I was having big problems with the Knight sabots and was introduced to these at the range and was very impressed. The only beef i can think with them is that they are so very close to balistic tips and I will never let one of those tough my magazine again. Talk about no blood trails. I bought them on accident for both myself and my son and we are 4 for 4 with no blood at all. We did find all 4 deer but it was because of good shot placement and the deer didn't go far.
ORIGINAL: cybersniper

Gryan,

I know what you are talking about. I took two deer last year using PR bullets dead center. I recovered the deer but neither shot passed through and left little or no blood. The was from 20 yards with a Knight Disc Extreme .50 stainless thumbhole stock with 100 grains of triple 7.

This year I switched to 250 gr. Knight red hots and they were much better. Out of the three deer I took this year only one left a good blood trail because it was spraying each time it's heart beat. It was aged at 6 1/2 and ran 125yds with a money shot right in the heart. The other two were piled up within 50 yards with just a few drops of blood.

I shot three additional with my 30-06 and there is always a huge blood trail. All of my hits have been heart/lung shots I usually average between 5 to 10 deer per year between bow, gun, and ML and the ML has the poorest blood trails of all three. We practice QDM and are trying like hell to cut down our doe population. Between our neighboring parcel and ours (850 acres) we took 54 deer last year and just under 60 this year. The area will probably be earn a buck next year due to the size of the herd.

I don't know why this is, it doesn't make sense, but I know exactly what you are talking about. There were many threads on this last year in the muzzleloader forum. Specifically on non-pass through hits being more common than not.

Cybersniper
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