Chap,

I don't care to beat a dead horse, but if go to my original post, before sabotloader posted his pics, it will be clear I was talking about impact outside the shoulder on a frontally quartered animal. Yes, sabotloader's was frontally quartered, but his placement was perfect.

Now sabotloader is an excellent marksman. He spends lots of time at the range and can make that shot at 170 yards just like he did. I have no complaints with sabotloader's shot.

That said.A frontally quartered shot like that leaves very little room for error. The farther out that shot is taken, the less desirable it becomes. If he misses by 3 inches left, he lands outside the shoulder possibly deflecting or wounding only one lung. If he misses 3 inches right, he may miss lung altogether or barely wound the right one.

Don't miss read this. He has the skill to do it.

Too often people make bad decisions and when they do,unintended, undesiredoutcomes result. Good people making mistakes. But one can't learn from errors without identifying the problem. IMO, the powerbelt bullets fits a special categoryof "scape goat" and the use of it as a "scapegoat" isgaining popularityin this and other forums.

Even when overpowered, according to numerous posts by reputable users, Powerbelts swiftly kill deer, provided that are expertly placed to pass through both lungs without having to negotiate high quartering angles or bone. This is the bread and butter shot and usually one gets a chance to place double lung if he is patient. Sometimes it won't come and it will boil down to a judgement. "Do I have the skill to place it where it needs to go or will I let it pass?"Even if thedecision is made to take the shot, one generally can not expect to kill the animal as swiftly as getting the perfect broadside shot. An animal with one lung can do some amazingthings even though its dying.

My original reference to shot placement was meant to make sabotloader aware that his information was largely based on accounts where he was not present, often with the animal unrecovered, and no knowledge quartering angle or precise impact. I have hunted now for 30 years. Done alot of hunting during rifle season and I can't tell you how many deer I have recovered for members in the party after they have given up looking for it. Even a high powered rifle with its jacketed bullet can beslow to killwhen placement is less than ideal. Blood doesn't always come out in easily tracked trails, even on pass throughs.

Since I didn't draw buck this past season, I took a friend hunting last year and he shot a nice 5X5 at 80 yards, twice, with a 270 rifle broadside. It got away. Why? Shot placement was less than ideal, there can be no other reason. I wasn't looking through the scope and I don't know the precise impacts because the deer, inspite of our efforts that evening and most of the following day, was not recovered.

This I can tell you. He got lung. The deercoughed up coagulated blood. He got something to do with his leg, shoulder, or something because he was dragging his leg through the sand of a dry creek bed he used as an escape route. We worked very hard to recover him but ultimately lost the trail.

Thepoint here is that any bullet can fail and even while my friend felt sure of his shots, the impactshad to be less than the precise placement needed to do the job swiftly. If he had shot a powerbelt, there would be those who would simply draw the conclusion that it "blew up" or "didn't penetrate".

In the now year and a half I have been a member here, I have yet to see any thread on shot placement,specifically the risks and greater level of skill required,surrounding alternatives to the double lung shot. There have been numerous threads on powerbelts. It would be nice to see a different attitude about unrecovered game, one which recognizes the responsibility lies with the hunter, not his equipment, rather his skill and use of the equipment. That's the kind of help which would result in better, more successful hunters.