No matter where a "Wakeman conflict" arises, Wolfhound to the rescue!

Wolfhound76

This gives me no joy, but I respectfully disagree with most of what you have written.

Randy has brought most of the grief upon himself as he did with BPI, Traditions, Remington, Greybeard and many other places. He is know to follow the money. He is a very knowledgible man, but he has an agenda.

I still rely on him for information, but i do have to weigh all of that information to separate personal biases from fact

IMO!

This is precisely what I am talking about.So you are telling me thatRandy doesn't know whether loads which range from 8,000 to 14,000 psi (2f BP)up to 460 grain projectiles are safe in a Spanish barrel? Come now. Doesn't know because each and everybarrel is tested only 10,000 psi? What wasmy NEF barrel tested to? What was my T/C hawken barrel tested to? It would surprise me if either barrel was tested at all.

Wolfhound, I know Randy expected them to. I just don't think they owe himanything. Regarding Randy'ssupport for standards, I support that whole heartedly. I just think the governing body to set those standards should be headed by someone other than Randy. Frankly, I don't think he is qualified and I think he's too involved with "relationships" to do it right.

Happy Hunting, Phil

As far as Savage/Toby & Randy go, partial he said she said mumbo, truth is so hidden will we ever know what really happened???? I'd just let it die. My experience with both Savage and BPI products has never suggested concerns with safety...IF COMMON SENSE is applied. I personally believeourexperience is very much a valuable commodity. I enjoy hearing other thoughts/experiences/opinions and may chose to implement them or portions of them but in the end what I have experienced isn't tossed aside b/c somebody just said so. Like mentioned above take it with a grain salt. This includes company marketing, gun writers and so on.

In terms of MLing I took it up for one reason only, to extend my hunting season. Same could be said with many other things I have done in regards to this sport, all to further my passion. I am sorry but the challenge for me comes within, not in the piece of equipment I am toting. Just my opinion.

I am a bit tiffed (for lack of a better word) that some think or make it appearsuch "max" loads are required to a kill a deer effectively at 200 yards. I think most experienced shooters will tell you taking an animal at distance is more about the hunter than the rifle or load they are using. I agree such max loads are way over marketed andIalso believe theylargely under utilized in the real world.If you buy based solely on such marketing, you may be very underwhelmed with your choice. Again common sense applies, consider the source. Will Ford say they are weaker than Chevy????

Do you really think any ML rifle tech like Randy or Tobytest their rifle barrels & actionsbeyond the recommended grainswithout any body protection (or) a contraption that allows them to remain a safe distance away? Many use a face shield and a chestvest while testing. Was Toby hurt? Did Randy test those Savages with full body exposure?.... heck no!

So if you load up your Optima beyond the recommended loads without any protection makes youyour ownreal piece of work. Don't blame Randy when a question/opinion is raised to him later -on whether the gun was purposely blown up. He answered the question in the manner the question was raised... ie..... "Randy.... in your opinion, was the rifle barrel purposely ruptured?

Boy thats not real smart if you think otherwise!

Honestly, I don't see, and i think you would agree, any useful purpose in Randy orToby, deliberately loading any of their muzzleloaders, Savage or otherwise, with loads which are prohibited by the manufacturer. It is a terrible example and a complete abandonment of the responsibility both bear as respected, knowledgeable, individuals in the sport of muzzleloading.

Happy Hunting, Phil

The first reply I read on this post made more sense than what the two guys involved ever said. dmurphy is correct only mfg testing with open results will put to rest any questions about how safe our arms are. We can even add a caviat to that if they don't test than why?

Then again why would the mfg care what us little people think[:@]

I don't know why I even bother. People are going to believe what they want to believe.

It occurs to me that our Muzzleloaders are already being tested, day in, day out. Every time we load our muzzleloader and successfully fire them we are "proofing" our barrels to that pressure. Doesn't mean the rifles are safe at that load on repeated firings, just means the barrel has withstood the pressure of that load.

To my knowledge, no BPI product has blown up using 100 grains of 2f BP or equivalent (e.g. 85 grains 2f 777). If anyone knows of such a thing happening, I would like to know of the documentation. Also, to my knowledge, all or most of the accidents occurred during the first range session with maximum 3 pellet loads, most commonly on the first shot fired. I would also like to know just how many of these incidents are documented by Randy.

I really do think that most accidents using manufacture approved loads do occur on the first shot fired and with the max allowed charge. I think a rough bore coupled with a maximum charge is responsible for highly elevatedpressures in this initial firing. I think an incident like this could happen with any new muzzleloader, made by any manufacturer, when one fires a 3 pellet load in a brand new muzzleloader. Of course this is only my opinion.

I think Randy does a disservice to hundreds of thousands of muzzleloading enthusiasts who own rifles withSpanish made barrels when he seems to be incapable of making recommendations of loads which can safely be used in them. If he were to tell me flat out, thathe"doesn't know" if they canbe used safely at all, I would consider him disingenious.

Happy Hunting, Phil

I think I just said that with a few less words. I am not afraid of my imports nor would I be afraid of a Savage. We the consumer just need to do our job and follow recomended loads.