Roundball,

You may be correct on this. I purchased an inline to get 1:28 twist and 209 ignition. The twist for the heavy conicals I like. I have the sense that you get a sense of satisfaction from your muzzleloading experience that we can only imagine. It seems we all have different ideas of what the muzzleloading experience should be. For me, it must be done with open sights. I don't even know if I'll be hunting with the inline this year, its such an ugly rifle, really. Besides, it on its way back for service. The hawken, after 26 years, never has needed repair.

Happy Hunting, Phil

Hey, Roundball: Nice Buck! What bullet and sabot did you use?

IM jaybe

Pglasgow

I am quite sure that A&H has conducted pressure test of their own, but I at the same time I am pretty sure that they have conducted these same tests in Spain. Spain is not just selling these barrels to us Americans - they are out there in Europe also and I know for a fact they have T7 in Europe also....

And then realize there are no proof marks on GM barrels at all. It is a Spanish law that the barrels must be proofed at a minimum to get out of the country - or they would not have a proof either.

Do I feel more confident with an American barrel - yes! It is really harder to say that about some American cars vs some foreign cars.

This is all that is required to tip you to buy American over a lower-priced import. Worked on me. Confidence. It's nothing physical. It is totally abstract. And it will always cost the consumer something to get. Confidence is a product in of itself. It is a feature hard working Americans are paying good money for.

But it is not by "proving" the safety of American made ML's that Randy and his supporters have added this feature. It is rather, by destroying the confidence people have in the competitors of American made ML's, that this value has been added.

Happy Hunting, Phil

arc vs line again? Not hardly.

A&H took positive action to address RW's concerns - they understood those concerns. Many do not.

I see no reason for anyone to get worked up over this issue.The choice is rather simple actually. If you feel Spanish Barrels proof tested to their standard as safe, then buy that product if you so wish. Are the Spanish made rifles as accurate and work as smooth as the the American rifles? If you feel they do, save a few bucks and get a CVA or Traditions or what ever. Hunt with it, target shoot with it, enjoy it. Who cares what someone else claims. You do not believe their claim or warning, so whats the difference? As long as you are satisfied with the product that is all that's important.

I for many years drove an old rusty beat up looking chevrolet. A real nasty looking thing it was. My friends teased me without mercy about driving around in a four wheeled (we will not finish the description) thing. Yet the engine ran great, it got good mileage, I did not have to make car payments, and when some one dinged me in a parking lot, it was not the end of the world. I was satisfied with the product, it got the job done, and that was all that was important.

If the information put out by Randy Wakeman and others who share his opinion concern you, then buy American or at least something that is tested to your satisfaction. No one needs to knock a different make rifle. You simply do not promote it. If someone asks your opinion you voice that opinion to reflect your beliefs.

I think some of the warnings about judging the strength of your powder charges is good advise, but then I think that no matter what kind or make of rifle I shoot. Do I own a BPI product? Way too many of them one person around here will tell you (thank goodness I do not listen to her). Am I careful with my loads? All the time. I never get distracted when I am shooting a black powder. If I do, I check every load all over again. I have dumped more then one charge of powder on the ground because someone took my attention off of what I was doing.

Take advise on these forums with a grain of salt. That's why I like it when there are opinions totally opposite of mine. It gives the person asking a guestion the chance to judge for themelves. Which is really what this issue is all about. Read the facts or opinions, make or base your decision on that and work accordinly.

Now I need to go and check to see if the UPS man has brought my new CVA Stalker yet....

I'm just not sure RW is someone any company has to address itself to. Really, who is he, UC? What makes him an authority that a gun manufacture must address itself to? That A&H took a positive actionis indicative that they understood how RW'sactions could harm them, perhaps even put them out of business. That A&H was able to satisfy RW as to the safety of their rifles with spanish barrels, merely tells me that Traditions and CVA could do the same.

What I think Randy should do, is to discourage everyone from using charges in excess of the powder manufacture's maximum recommendations. That will save lives and limbs far better than discouraging the purchase of guns manufactured with Spanish barrels.

My biggest problem with RW's crusade is that it destroys the experience of many who deserve to enjoy and use sensibly the muzzleloader's they worked so hard to buy and grown to love. I just don't like that aspect of his method. He should rather encourage and recommend safe loads for these muzzleloaders, helping others to enjoy their muzzleloaders safely.

Happy Hunting, Phil

cayugad

God, I am glad you are here - AMEN

Cayugad:

sabotloader is right. God bless you. Before you posted, I thought about going into the archives and pulling out some loads you have used, sproulman, and others. All of which, are loads which are very effective deer killers, and which are safe for use in ANY modern muzzleloader, yielding pressures around or below the proofing of Spanish barrels.

Again, you say it so much better really than I ever could. God bless you cayugad.

Happy Hunting, Phil

They could have. That's what Randy expected them to do. He expected them to behave like Austin Halleck did. They didn't. I wish I still had all the emails from CVA and Traditions he forwarded to me. They called him anti spanish, anti second amendment, and an anti gunner. He also contacted companis without spanish barrels and most of them were like Austin Halleck. Heck Randy designed AH's Accuclean breechplug. He's always had a good relationship with them. He had a good relationship with CVA and Traditions prior to this too. Onavideohe even recomends as a best buy the Winchester X-150 with moderate charges. Even when all this was going on he still gave a decent review to the CVA Optima. The best he ever got with it was 3" @ 100 yds. I don't know how many barrels that thing had. I think 3 or 4.

I can't tell you the number of times I've been talking to him on the phone and he tells me "got another email asking if my CVA/Traditions is safe with 100 gr charges. How many times can I say I don't know? I've never heard of a CVA/Traditions blowing with that charge though."

No. It makes people think about what they're doing, or at least it should.