Muzzle Loading
02-02-2006, 07:59 PM
#11
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Muzzle Loading
feel free to email or PM what every works best for you. Loose the pellets in that rifle and use some loose powder.I'm pretty sure that was your whole problem. #11 caps will fire pellets but not always. Loose powder will solve your troubles..Pyrodex RS or Triple Se7en 2f will work great in the rifle. I have a couple of knight rifles and they are both great shooters...
02-02-2006, 10:57 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Bandera, Texas
Posts: 1,636
RE: Muzzle Loading
It is #11 cap, looking to convert to 209 when I return from here.
What is the use of bore butter then? When should it be used and not used? Some of the not used is here, and i guess I didnt clean it well enough between shots. THe stuff that cayugad gave me will help 110% I am sure. Guess since it is a good one I will work with it. Was using the 777 pellets, but the loose powder i will try. Cant remember what exactly I was using for bullets, they were sabots, so I am also open to suggestions there. I probably should have done more research but it was a gift and yes I am a man, and I figured with directions and the range I could figure it out! Now I am anxious to go at it again.
Should I use a scope or try open sights?
What is the use of bore butter then? When should it be used and not used? Some of the not used is here, and i guess I didnt clean it well enough between shots. THe stuff that cayugad gave me will help 110% I am sure. Guess since it is a good one I will work with it. Was using the 777 pellets, but the loose powder i will try. Cant remember what exactly I was using for bullets, they were sabots, so I am also open to suggestions there. I probably should have done more research but it was a gift and yes I am a man, and I figured with directions and the range I could figure it out! Now I am anxious to go at it again.
Should I use a scope or try open sights?
02-02-2006, 11:28 PM
#13
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Muzzle Loading
JLmoore1956
cayugad's list is complete ad very thorough work by it when you can...
#11's and T7 pellets is pretty marginal - It really takes a lot of heat to get them going and they do not have any BP on the pellet to help. If you choose to shoot pellets - you should probably go to Pyrodex pellets - they a have black powed impregnated on the base of each pellet to help get it started. If you can make the switch to loose powder I think yopu would be much happier and you would get consistent ignition even with #11's especially if they are CCI #11 Mags, but better yet might be Dynamite Noble 1075 plus caps... These fit the #11 nipple.
Bullets and sabots is another game - That game is played by finding what combination your rifle prefers and what you might be hunting. I am hunting elk so my projectile is a lot heavier than you might need for hunting whitetail. Another segment which sabot can you get down your barrel comfortably - With a night you should be able to get a standard sabot bullet combination down.
You have a great gun and with time you will enjoy it - but keep coming back here and asking questions if you do not have local help.
If it were I and I could give you some help follow cayugad's instructions.
As far as shooting supplies I would start as simple as I could get a few shots under your belt them start branching out... Pellets are the most simple way to start, but as much as I hate Pryodex they would be a good way to start - then get some easy loading PowerBelts bullets maybe 295 grain 50 cal. They are expensive but again a good simple way to start. After you feel confident in your ability to load and shoot swab the barrel. then start moving to a load and projectile that you really want to use.
A lot of people do not like BButter in a gun and have very negative reactions to it's suggested use, so keep that in mind. Most of these people are great shooters and have established routines that work for them as mine does for me.- I do not use it as a lubricantor a protectant -it is not thateffective at either of these two thingunless you are shooting real black powder.BB does work with conicals.
My barrel care routine is not on this computer so I will post this and send the the care routine in another post in the morning.
Keep asking questions - and in the end you are the final authority...
cayugad's list is complete ad very thorough work by it when you can...
#11's and T7 pellets is pretty marginal - It really takes a lot of heat to get them going and they do not have any BP on the pellet to help. If you choose to shoot pellets - you should probably go to Pyrodex pellets - they a have black powed impregnated on the base of each pellet to help get it started. If you can make the switch to loose powder I think yopu would be much happier and you would get consistent ignition even with #11's especially if they are CCI #11 Mags, but better yet might be Dynamite Noble 1075 plus caps... These fit the #11 nipple.
Bullets and sabots is another game - That game is played by finding what combination your rifle prefers and what you might be hunting. I am hunting elk so my projectile is a lot heavier than you might need for hunting whitetail. Another segment which sabot can you get down your barrel comfortably - With a night you should be able to get a standard sabot bullet combination down.
You have a great gun and with time you will enjoy it - but keep coming back here and asking questions if you do not have local help.
If it were I and I could give you some help follow cayugad's instructions.
As far as shooting supplies I would start as simple as I could get a few shots under your belt them start branching out... Pellets are the most simple way to start, but as much as I hate Pryodex they would be a good way to start - then get some easy loading PowerBelts bullets maybe 295 grain 50 cal. They are expensive but again a good simple way to start. After you feel confident in your ability to load and shoot swab the barrel. then start moving to a load and projectile that you really want to use.
A lot of people do not like BButter in a gun and have very negative reactions to it's suggested use, so keep that in mind. Most of these people are great shooters and have established routines that work for them as mine does for me.- I do not use it as a lubricantor a protectant -it is not thateffective at either of these two thingunless you are shooting real black powder.BB does work with conicals.
My barrel care routine is not on this computer so I will post this and send the the care routine in another post in the morning.
Keep asking questions - and in the end you are the final authority...
02-02-2006, 11:40 PM
#14
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
Posts: 6,921
RE: Muzzle Loading
Should I use a scope or try open sights?
I can't add anything to the original post, theother fellas have you well covered. You've got a good resource here, many experienced ML shooters so ask away.
Best of luck and enjoy blowing smoke.
02-02-2006, 11:53 PM
#16
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Muzzle Loading
JLmoore1956
I should have also said in there someplace do not use BB in your normal shooting routine (do not use it while shooting)- it can gum up the works
OK I walked back to the other computer and his is my cleaning routine and an explanation I have tried to make clear several times... it is long I'm sorry about that..
I am a bore butter user have been using it for the six or seven years that I have been shooting ML's - inlines and sidehammers, and I shoot a lot. I really am not trying to recruit or stretch any of the tales at all either. I do not suffer the "crud ring" - plastic fouling - and/or very little powder fouling. I have never used a bronze bore brush in any of the ML's to remove anything. The bores feel glass smooth. Inserting sabots is a dream - not like Power Belts but no short starter required. I believe I am achieving very good accuracy for me with excellent velocities if my chrono is not lieing.
I really believe it the manner in which you use BB that makes the difference. The most shinning demonstration I can relate to you all is in my trap guns. After a day of trap shooting my chokes would be ladened with black plastic fouling from the wads being constricted down at that point. On occasion I would even shoot a strip of plastic fouling out of the trap and it would float the the ground in front of me. This actually really use to concern me because I felt I might be affecting or changing the shot pattern through the day as I shot. I now treat my chokes with BB and I am sitting here looking at my Modified choke that has 225 rounds through it - I can see stainless steel all the way around the choke it is dark but it is not black - even the ports are semi clean. If you have a shotgun with screw in chokes that you have shot put a bit of BB on your little finger and rub it around in there - you will see what I mean the palstic melts off on to your finger.
All of this said I will also say that I do not rely on BB as a lubricant or a bore protector or anything to do with "seasoning" - it's soul purpose in life is to reduce fouling - which I am convinced it does. I know with my ML's I can can shoot 4-5 shoots with out patching and without having a detrimental effect on accuracy. One of my goals this week end is take one of the sidehammers and one of the inlines out and see how many shots I can get off without patching... IF the downpour stops.
As I said I feel the method of application is the difference. I know that a lot of you are going to be wildly against this but as people have so often said "if'n it is not broke don't fix it" so far it is not broke here in Idaho.
Here is what I do:
[align=center]
Quote:
Barrel Care: this is really a hot topic with a ton of different thoughts - you will develop your own care plan over time.
The use of Bore Butter - I really believe it is a good product but I also believe there is right way and a wrong way to use it in modern day ML's not using real Black Powder.
I almost hate to mention this because it is going to start up a huge discussion again.... I shoot sabots exclusively in 6 different ML guns and 4 different shot guns - 2 of them high quality trap guns. I do not get plastic fouling in any of the ML's and I now can also say I have reduced the plastic fouling in my shotgun chokes drastically. OK here is the dirty word "bore butter"
I believe if it is applied in what I think is the correct method it really reduces fouling.... Example if you have a shot gun with screw chokes after you have shot several rounds through the choke take the choke out and look at it. It will black and streaky with plastic fouling - put a little BB on your finger and rub it around in the choke - you will really be surprised at what happens to the plastic fouling.
My feelings are "how the bore butter is applied is the real key" - It should not be caked inside the barrel or added to the sabots as a lubricant, nor should it be used as a spit-patch.
The ONLY time I use BB is in a HOT barrel after cleaning and when the barrel is dry. Apply BB to a cotton bore swab and run it down the barrel, the hotter the barrel the better, because the pores are wide open. When you pull the bore swab out you will not believe what has happen, the pores in the barrel will literally suck up the BB completely remove it from your brush. I do this a couple of times - then while the barrel is still warm dry patch it with a clean patch and get as much of the loose BB out as you can. After it has cooled repeat the patch process. The only BB that remains will be in the pores and a small amount trapped behind the lands. Your first shot will remove that also. The final step is to apply a light of coat of quality gun oil. What you have now is a clean and smooth barrel, I really would not use the words "a seasoned barrel" because it is not... what it is a smooth bore less prone to cause friction. This coating last for several rounds releasing a bit each time it is fired.
Lots of people are going to disagree but that is what 6 years of experience has shown me and others. It is all in how you APPLY IT.
Another thing I do not battle and I think it is again because of BB - I do not get the "crud ring" in any of my ML's and I use t7 loose powder with 209 ignition in the inlines and #11 on the sidehammers.
Now, all of this is my opinion and your results may not be the same - BUT don't shoot the messenger - the non BB folks are a lot more vocal than the bb users.
[/align]
I should have also said in there someplace do not use BB in your normal shooting routine (do not use it while shooting)- it can gum up the works
OK I walked back to the other computer and his is my cleaning routine and an explanation I have tried to make clear several times... it is long I'm sorry about that..
I am a bore butter user have been using it for the six or seven years that I have been shooting ML's - inlines and sidehammers, and I shoot a lot. I really am not trying to recruit or stretch any of the tales at all either. I do not suffer the "crud ring" - plastic fouling - and/or very little powder fouling. I have never used a bronze bore brush in any of the ML's to remove anything. The bores feel glass smooth. Inserting sabots is a dream - not like Power Belts but no short starter required. I believe I am achieving very good accuracy for me with excellent velocities if my chrono is not lieing.
I really believe it the manner in which you use BB that makes the difference. The most shinning demonstration I can relate to you all is in my trap guns. After a day of trap shooting my chokes would be ladened with black plastic fouling from the wads being constricted down at that point. On occasion I would even shoot a strip of plastic fouling out of the trap and it would float the the ground in front of me. This actually really use to concern me because I felt I might be affecting or changing the shot pattern through the day as I shot. I now treat my chokes with BB and I am sitting here looking at my Modified choke that has 225 rounds through it - I can see stainless steel all the way around the choke it is dark but it is not black - even the ports are semi clean. If you have a shotgun with screw in chokes that you have shot put a bit of BB on your little finger and rub it around in there - you will see what I mean the palstic melts off on to your finger.
All of this said I will also say that I do not rely on BB as a lubricant or a bore protector or anything to do with "seasoning" - it's soul purpose in life is to reduce fouling - which I am convinced it does. I know with my ML's I can can shoot 4-5 shoots with out patching and without having a detrimental effect on accuracy. One of my goals this week end is take one of the sidehammers and one of the inlines out and see how many shots I can get off without patching... IF the downpour stops.
As I said I feel the method of application is the difference. I know that a lot of you are going to be wildly against this but as people have so often said "if'n it is not broke don't fix it" so far it is not broke here in Idaho.
Here is what I do:
[align=center]
Quote:
Barrel Care: this is really a hot topic with a ton of different thoughts - you will develop your own care plan over time.
The use of Bore Butter - I really believe it is a good product but I also believe there is right way and a wrong way to use it in modern day ML's not using real Black Powder.
I almost hate to mention this because it is going to start up a huge discussion again.... I shoot sabots exclusively in 6 different ML guns and 4 different shot guns - 2 of them high quality trap guns. I do not get plastic fouling in any of the ML's and I now can also say I have reduced the plastic fouling in my shotgun chokes drastically. OK here is the dirty word "bore butter"
I believe if it is applied in what I think is the correct method it really reduces fouling.... Example if you have a shot gun with screw chokes after you have shot several rounds through the choke take the choke out and look at it. It will black and streaky with plastic fouling - put a little BB on your finger and rub it around in the choke - you will really be surprised at what happens to the plastic fouling.
My feelings are "how the bore butter is applied is the real key" - It should not be caked inside the barrel or added to the sabots as a lubricant, nor should it be used as a spit-patch.
The ONLY time I use BB is in a HOT barrel after cleaning and when the barrel is dry. Apply BB to a cotton bore swab and run it down the barrel, the hotter the barrel the better, because the pores are wide open. When you pull the bore swab out you will not believe what has happen, the pores in the barrel will literally suck up the BB completely remove it from your brush. I do this a couple of times - then while the barrel is still warm dry patch it with a clean patch and get as much of the loose BB out as you can. After it has cooled repeat the patch process. The only BB that remains will be in the pores and a small amount trapped behind the lands. Your first shot will remove that also. The final step is to apply a light of coat of quality gun oil. What you have now is a clean and smooth barrel, I really would not use the words "a seasoned barrel" because it is not... what it is a smooth bore less prone to cause friction. This coating last for several rounds releasing a bit each time it is fired.
Lots of people are going to disagree but that is what 6 years of experience has shown me and others. It is all in how you APPLY IT.
Another thing I do not battle and I think it is again because of BB - I do not get the "crud ring" in any of my ML's and I use t7 loose powder with 209 ignition in the inlines and #11 on the sidehammers.
Now, all of this is my opinion and your results may not be the same - BUT don't shoot the messenger - the non BB folks are a lot more vocal than the bb users.
[/align]
02-03-2006, 08:04 AM
#17
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location:
Posts: 492
RE: Muzzle Loading
sabotloader: do you heat the barrel by pouring hot water ON it, or IN it, or both (or some other way)?
I can see that your application of the BB is very different from just leaving a layer or film of it in the bore - kinda makes sense to me.
IM jaybe
I can see that your application of the BB is very different from just leaving a layer or film of it in the bore - kinda makes sense to me.
IM jaybe
02-03-2006, 08:11 AM
#18
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Muzzle Loading
jaybe
In or through it - if it is an inline I put the muzzle on a wash rag and pour the water through so that water is slowed down and give it time to heat the barrel - the hottttt water is death on sugar and any plastic fouling you might have.
Me too, but I am such a poor writer I have never been able to really explain the whole process - now if i was as patient and diplomatic as cayugad - I think I could make it work - the writing I mean... the process does work for me.
In or through it - if it is an inline I put the muzzle on a wash rag and pour the water through so that water is slowed down and give it time to heat the barrel - the hottttt water is death on sugar and any plastic fouling you might have.
kinda makes sense to me.
