Dave590

This is my first post here on the black powder forum. I usually hang around the political forum, but I have decided to pick up a muzzleloader this season, so I thought...What better place to get advice than here?

I have only hunted with a muzzleloader once before, and that was last year. I shot a doe, and I was kind of discouraged with the size of the hole it left. It completely unhinged the front left leg. In fact, the whole front end was damaged beyond any salvage. Thats kind of why I have been putting it off. You could say I've been debating on whether or not to get one, or stick with regular rifles.

Well, I've decided to make the plunge... I think I've narrowed it down to one muzzleloader. Thats the T/C Black Diamond, in .50 cal. with the .209 primer. I like the way it feels, and it seems light enough to hump all day without breaking my shoulder.

My questions for anyone who has one, or knows about them are; What is a good powder/bullet combo...And second, what is a good bullet to use that does NOT do so much damage. I thought about going with a .45 cal. model, but the bullets are not so readily available here, while at the same time, every gas station and store around here sells .50 cal. stuff.

I've decided not to strap a scope on it because the cleaning methods for these things is so far removed from what I'm used to, that I don't want to bang up a good scope in the deep sink. So my third question is; what is your experience with these fiber optic sights. My first thoughts were "boy, these things are pretty cool", but how do they perform after beating them around in the woods for a while, and many trips to the sink.

And last, What kind of accuracy am I looking at. It's my understanding that even with all the modern advents incorporated into these things, they still tend to stray a little. Most of the shots I encounter are anywhere between thirty and a hundred yards. Fifty to sixty being the norm. (I live in the mountains, It's a rare occasion te even SEE more than a hundred yards).

Thanks in advance.

driftrider

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> And second, what is a good bullet to use that does NOT do so much damage.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, but waiting for a good shot and putting the bullet in the right spot usually mitigates the amount of damage done to the meat. I would think that the wound channel from a high velocity .30 cal rifle bullet would do more damage than a much slower muzzleloader bullet just because of the trauma of a mach 2-3 shockwave.

I'd recommend a .50 cal gun, since there's a lot of versatility built into one. As far as accuracy, most modern inline rifles are capable of sub 1&quot; groups at 100 yards, provided you find a bullet/load that suits your gun. Bullet selection really depends on what you plan on shooting at, and the rifling twist of the barrel. The faster the twist, the longer/heavier the bullet the gun will like to shoot. Check out this link

http://www.prbullet.com/question.htm

It contains a lot of really good info about bullet selection and other topics.

Good luck,

Mike


Gun control means putting the second bullet through the same hole as the first- Ted Nugent
NRA Member

Mark whiz

Dave,

Mike's advice to check with PrBullets is right on!
They make about the best bullets on the market and they really know their stuff. In fact.....if you give them a call, they can tell you exactly which bullet to use in your rifle. Take their recommendation on bullet & power charge to heart......odds are they have already fired it at least 100 times in their own guns.

Personally, I've been shooting their 350gr QT polymer-tipped bullet over 90gr of Hodgdon Triple 7 (2fg) in my Knight and it works great. Check this link out to see what it did on a recent boar hunt. The shot distance was about 10yds.......complete penetration (bullet impacted in the opposite shoulder), minimal meat damage, & zero distance to recovery.

http://community.webshots.com/album/39293886KUEdol



&quot;Every moving thing that liveth, I give unto you as meat&quot; (Gen 9:3)

Trust God..........but keep your powder dry!

Dave590

Driftrider, thanks for the link. I suppose that most of my concerns about accuracy stem from the limited amount of exposure that I have had with muzzleloaders. The few I've been around were not very accurate at around a hundred yards. Just keeping consecutive rounds on a paper plate was considered pretty fair. I usually shoot a Browning A-Bolt .270. Accuracy is really not an issue, and the destruction of meat is not an issue either as I tend to shoot them in the head.

Since posting this topic yesterday, I have gone through the &quot;archives&quot; here in the black powder section, and it seems that most folks here tend to get pretty good grouping out of their weapons.

It might be that the particular weapon I used last year was simply not a very good one.

Mark...Those are some very impresive pictures you have there.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

skeeter 7MM

Loads are really best assessed by each individual and the gun. Ask 10 ML's what the best load is my bets are you'll get at least 7 different answers.

My best load and what I have used to take 4 animals (3 deer and 1 Black Bear) is; Hornady 44 Cal, 240 Gr XTP Sabots with 100 Gr of Pryodex Pellets. I shoot 1-11/4' groups at 100 are my norm. With all animals meat damage was nill, in through the ribs out through the ribs...longest shot was 125 yards, closest was 45. If meat is a concern don't ever shoot the animal in the shoulder, if the shot is not their don't take it.

As far as scope and cleaning. I flush my barrel with hot soapy water, using a funnel, into a icecream pail. Then follow up with hot water and clean patches. I wash down all exterior parts with Hot soapy water and soft dry cloth. Final prep is apply a layer of rem oil with a soft cloth. I use tooth brush or the likes to clean out the rings and breech area. When I shot at the range, I will tape the scope in the breech area to elimate blast, while hunting one or two shot will lightly flim the scope base and easily wipes away when cleaning. With heavy fouling it may take me 45 minutes from start to finish, light 20 minutes...but i am real particular as well.

Dave590

For anyone who might be interested, I went ahead and took the plunge on wednesday and picked up the Black Diamond. I went out thursday and put about thirty five rounds through it. It's a hoot!!!

After fooling around with a couple of different kinds of bullets, I found that the Knight 260 grain Sabots with 100 grains of pyrodex seems to work pretty well with me.

While I was out, I ran into a guy I know who is the local fishing guide. He mentioned that he buys the little plastic sabot things and plain old .45 hollow point bullets, and stuffs them in the barrel with great results...Do any of you guys do that?

On a side note, I am now convinced that a black powder rifle is the dirtiest shooting thing I have ever had occasion to pull the trigger on. I can't wait untill the next time out.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

skeeter 7MM

Dave, I buy the 100 box 44 cal, Hornady 240 Gr XTP bullets. Then buy the Hornady green sabot seperately. (i'm not sure if this what your asking?????) The cost is over half of buying the smaller all in one package, here. But it is the same thing. As mentioned I run 100 gr of pyro pellets and shoot great groups with the xtp's. The best load combo I found and believe me I have tried a lot. I have taken 4 animals and performed flawlessly.

Up here the tendancy is go even smaller in Gr weight, many guys are shooting 200 and under with the 100 grain of powder out of 50 cals. At the range a couple of days ago 190 parts with 120 grains of select, this guy had 3-4&quot; groups at 250 Yards. However he hasn't taken an animal with this load yet, but said it will go through 2 phone books, 3/4 plywoood and 4&quot; into a stump at 100 yards, with perfect bullet expansion.....jury is a little wobbly on that one but still.

Yes they are dirty, fun to shoot and even better to clean!!!!!!!

driftrider

I think that accuracy in a muzzleloader is mostly a matter of bullet selection and consistant loading proceedure. My first inline (Tradition Buckhunter Pro .50) wouldn't shoot 300grain .44 sabots at all. When I sighted it in for the first time I was shooting at a standard shipping pallet with a piece of cardboard stapled to it (about 4'x4') at 100 yards. Using a 4X scope and shooting from a sandbag the impacts were literally random. I shot 5 times, hit the target 4 times with no bullet within one foot of another. My Dad was with me and he has always shot 460 grain Great Plains FP. I decided to try a group with them and the next 3 shots were 6&quot; low and left and in a 2&quot; group. It refuses to shoot anything else.

I really hope my new Knight isn't so finicky. I'm going to try PR QT .40 235grain bullets and work up from 80 grains of Triple 7 3FG.

Good luck and enjoy,

Mike



Gun control means putting the second bullet through the same hole as the first- Ted Nugent
NRA Member

skeeter 7MM

Dave, I forgot to say congrats, I am sure it will lend itself to many years of enjoyment.

AJ52

Dave,
Some Food for thought,
As far as loads,bullets etc,won't make any comment,way too many combo's.BUT - You might seriously consider switching to &quot;Clean Shot&quot; powder.It's now sold under the name &quot;American Pioneer Powder&quot;.I've always used BP until I s/w a tech at Knight re the .45 I had just bought.He recommended Clean Shot.I Had never heard of the stuff.Was very skeptical at time on any switch from BP.

Knight mailed me a Barnes Ballistic chart on the .45.It clearly showed Clean Shot out performed Pyrodex.I've used it 3 years and love it!An absolute breeze to clean up,1/2 the smoke,very little smell.
Corrosion is almost nill.They claim you can load numerous rounds(don't remember exact#)without running a patch.To test their claim,I fired 6-8 rounds without cleaning.Last round went down like the 1st.

The stuff does everthing they claim it will.

Anyway - I think once you get everthing tuned up in that smoke pole your gonna love it.Good Luck - AL



Edited by - aj52 on 10/06/2002 11:48:40