Oh, geeze,,,here I go....Blain Blain Blain,,,

First off, I don't take the credit of those shootings as the one who actually "pulled the trigger." I was never the shooter, only a witness to the dog getting hit. The other shooting, I arrived just after the shooting.

Lets see if I can answer all of your questions. You are correct about shot placement. With regards to the dog, the dog took the first load of 00Buck in the left shoulder area and legs. Yeah, the legs are not a vital area. But,,,the dog took (I'm guessing from memory) about 5 pellets in the shoulder area and around (another guess from memory) the first few ribs. The second shot was a shot where the pit turned slightly to run away from the first shot and took the second load around the mid-section on his left side, but half of the shot hit around the dog's rib cage area. I'm not a veterinarian, but I'd guess those were darn good shots. "Timex-Dog",,,,took a lick'n and kept on tick'n.

The shot with the armed suspect was around 15 yards and he took as I recall around 8 pellets in the torso. Paramedics were working on him when I showed up. The guy was out for the count. As I recall, no pellets exited out his back, but I know he lived and has a colostomy bag (indicating that a pellet or two must have taken out some of his lower intenstine). I'm sorry, but I didn't get out a measuring tape to see where exactly the pellets made impact and/or exit wounds. All I know, he wans't hit in the hand, legs etc...It was a vital shot in the mid to upper torso.

The department that authorizes those powerful 12 pellet Winchester 2 3/4" loads??? L.A. county Sheriff. We can carry those or 2 3/4" #4 buch with 27 pellets (.24 caliber). Most go with the 12 pellet 00 buck (.32 or .33 caliber, I can't remember which one it is the that load).

I know you're shocked, but look at all of the NVA and Viet Cong soilders that lived after being blased by Claymore mines (several hundred pellets of buckshot) at point blank range...or any soilder living after stepping on a land mine and getting both legs blown off,,,or big car crash victims, or airplane crash victims, or stabbing victims, or gun shot victims with machine guns, or AK's, or AR's, or...or...or...the list goes on and on. Human and animal bodies are really wonderous things that can survive massive trauma and/or destruction of various organs and body part. AND.... live to talk about it.

You mentioned the reduced loads of buckshot...Actually, the performance record for reduced loads is not "one shot kills" as you mentioned, rather it's claim to fame is "tighter groupings" at longer ranges. For some reason, the reduced loads have a track record of tighter groupings further on out, as compared to standard or magnum 9 pellet or 12 pellet loads in 2 3/4" shells. The dram equivalent in the reduced loads is generally "3 3/4" drams, unlike the magnum loads which is measured at "MAX drams."

Heck, I saw a training video of a man taking a 12ga slug in the stomach (yes, not vital zone) but he still managed to run upstairs and barricad himself with heavy furniture before he died. I also saw (via Second Chance body armor company) a video reenactment of a suspect taking over 30 rounds of a 9mm at a distance of about 20 feet. He took rounds in the center of his chest, stomach, neck, etc....and he still lived to keep firing back. He finally died when the officer shot a round in his head.

My point is, people live through big, violent "assaults" on the body and internal organs. Look what happened to the two suspects in the Miami Metro/Dade FBI shoot out in 1986. Both suspects (Michael Platt and Bill Matix) took numerous "fatal" rounds in the liver AND heart with 9mm's, and .38's AND....HERE'S THE BIG ONE...00 BUCK SHOT, before finally BOTH being killed by one agent using a S&W .38spl at point blank range and head shots!!!!

Even thought the suspects took rounds in the lungs, liver and a shot in the heart, they still managed to pull the trigger of their guns (one being a mini-14) and kill several FBI agents.

There is no magic bullet or buck shot round.

I could go on to tell you the story of a local police agency out here (Anaheim, CA Police) about a suspect that took a .45ACP 185gr +P round to the head and the bullet just glanced off. He was killed by a sergeant using a .38. Same with another pit bull in my department (different incident than the one mentioned above about the dog) taking a 147gr 9mm to the head and darn near "point blank range" and just cause a nasty scratch with a ton of blood. The dog is as mean as ever today and hates people in uniform everytime a black/white drives by the house....it goes on and on.

As Jack Pallance used to say on T.V.: "Believe it...or not."



Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/10/2002 05:26:12

USP:
And that's just with punny humans and dogs, imagine the difference between them and an enraged Alaska Kodiak Brown Bear!

That is precisly why the do not issue "magnum buck shot" to people who have to deal with these massive animals.

First of al those are extreme examples, for every failure like that there are over a hundred instant kills. Hell People have been hit by almost every type of caliber and lived. Lots much more powerful than a shotgun. I know of a girl who fell from an airplane 10,000 ft in the air and lived. The human body can be an amazing thing. Even though the guy lived through it he was down and out and most likely would have died without medical attention.

All I know is this...

If I hit them (anyone) once center mass with my 3 1/2" 0000 buck load or my 3" brenneke slug load, they won't get up...

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

looks like we are in for a camping trip on Kodiak..I will bring the camera as I sure as hell want it documented! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>!!!

Yep, we're gona tape it as part of my &quot;Buckshot for Big Game&quot; video.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

Blain, question, how do you know that when you hit them with whatever load you are touting, they won't get up ?? do you have practical experience ? if you do it will silence these naysayers, if you don't it should silence you usahunter

Blain,

About six mouths ago, I suggested you do the burlap sand bag test with your buckshot. Have you done it yet? Based on the fact you're still talking about shooting Grizzly with buckshot, I'm guessing not. A broad head has more penetration than buckshot!

Well the 12 pellet 3 1/2&quot; 0000 buckshot load penetrated 21&quot; of wet phonebooks. That is a hell of a lot of penetration. Enough for a Kodiak or Polar bear if you ask me.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

Now let me see if I understand what you said, 12 pellets penetrated 21&quot; into wet phone books, all 12? Everyone knows that a 44 mag has more penetration than bullshot, or whatever you said. If you hunt a brown bear with buckshot are you going to have a stunt double? Is Jeff Foxworty going to be the comentater? Got enough insurance?

Hunt smart, hunt safe

Blain,

Doesn't the fact that you are the only person on this board who feels buckshot is adequate for most big game tell you something? Doesn't the fact that buckshot is call &quot;BUCK&quot;shot tell you something? Deer - yes! Elk, Moose, Big Bears - NO! It's really a common sense thing. To suggest otherwise is foolishness. I typically agree to disagree. However, if someone's telling me the world is square, it's difficult to hold my tongue.