Thaninator

Ak Jim:
Can't fool me buddy, I know that home schoolers are smarter than public...my daughter was home schooled for a while

You must have missed the part about having my 6 wheeler there. I didn't get fancy with it. Just used a BIG knife (Cold Steel Trail Master) with occasional help from KOA's Bear Cub, cut the thing up and threw it in. Had to carry it all of 3 feet.

And your right...I could never have done it in that amount of time, if it weren't for the bear cheering me on.

This was definitely the sloppiest butchering job I've ever done (and ever hope to do), but once all the hair and debris was removed, the meat tasted good just the same. Now that you mentioned it, makes me glad that I was by myself…would'a been embarrassing to let someone see that sloppy of a job. Oh, and I didn't salvage the tenderloins (they were under water, and didn't seem worth the extra time).

Thank God it was a small moose…couldn't imagine the struggle I'da had with a monster.

You'll have to tell the hammer story...sounds interesting. But I think I'll continue to use my .44, since my throwing arm ain't so good (I was on the home school baseball team <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> ).

Seriously though, are you saying that you don't understand how a .44 can take down a bear?

If the answer to that is &quot;yes&quot;, then I'll have to direct you to my previous dissertation on this particular bullet, and it's PENETRATION capabilities.

Don't get me wrong though, there are definitely better calibers out there i.e. 460 Weatherby, .375 H&H, .454 Casul, etc. This Just happens to be the gun I'm competent with, and the load that works for me.

I'll be happy to switch to the .454 though, as soon as someone wants to buy me this caliber in the new Red Hawk <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Just out of curiosity, what would you say if I told you that my partner and I can get a bou completely butchered and in the bags, in just under 20 minutes (and unlike my Panic Attack Moose, neatly done at that)?

I'm not asking this to be facetious, but rather, because I have very limited exposure to other people's hunting (having been big game hunting solo, or with just two other people all of my life), and don't know if this would be considered a really good time, just average, or even a poor time (be gentle here…you might just break my heart if I find out it's a really, really poor time).

My partner(s) and I (with our families) typically have 5 bou down at one time, near camp. We started timing our butchering in the second year at this camp, as we started to think we were finally getting the hang of it, and to give us motivation to get done faster.

I'd appreciate input on it.

P.S. Sorry about the writing style...I'm too dumb to figure out how to change it <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Thaninator

45HKUSP:
Can you tell me the brand name, and model of those sabotted slugs? I've been looking for them, as they recieved high praise, but have yet to find them in the local stores.

One more thing I forgot to mention on that moose job (oh no! Here we go again ). I did take some time (not counted in the 45 min), to move the moose into a better position with my machine.

Proving once again, that bears are not always afraid of machines.

Have any of you found this to be true as well?

Hk45USP

Thaninator....now that you mention it, I do believe you and your .45min account of that moose. I witnessed a guy that butchers wild pigs and feral pigs for a living on a ranch. He can field dress a 500lb+ ferak pig that's hanging on a gramble hook in about 15 min. If he's in a race, he could do it in 10 minutes. He does it everyday....that's his living. I love watching him work. It's like magic with him, a knife and a sharpening steel.

So 45min is realistic. Especially since you said it was a sloppy job etc... It probably wasn't that bad at all.

Im fast with deer, but bear im slower. Elk im slower too. then again, i take 45min showers too. My wife hates me for being so slow...

I add...for those people that think a .44 mag can't take down the largest moose/elk or bear, i ask you this:...What were our early hunting forefathers using in the 50's when it came to handgun hunting, when the biggest handgun around back then was only a .44mag??? Don't tell me there were no handgun hunters back then that didn't try their [successful]luck with a .44mag. In 1955 Thompson/Center chambered a .44mag with a 14&quot; barrel. So I know that the gun was used on big game &quot;way back when.&quot;

Range is an entire different topic with the .44mag, I'll give you that. You have to pick and choose your shots a little more carefully with that bullet.

With today's modern day .44mag high performance bullets, the .44mag has more &quot;oomph&quot; than it did just 10 years ago.

Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/08/2002 03:31:49

Hk45USP

Thaninator.....yes, i went down to my gun safe and pulled a box of sabot slugs out. This is what it is:

Remington 12ga 3&quot; magnum &quot;Premier Copper solid SABOT slug&quot;. It's actually a little hollow point, all copper. 100% bullet weight retention.

The muzzle energy is claimed to be at 1600fps, with 2381 foot lbs/energy. Sighted in at zero @50 yards, it drops -2.5 @ 100yds. However, I usually hit 4-5&quot; groups at 100 yards and rifled sights.

The lot number or &quot;index number&quot; for the rounds are: PR12MLS. That way your local gun shop can order them for you.

The penetration is insane. I shot a big 5x4 mule deer high in the chest, the slug broke some ribs, hit the spinal cord and went all the way down, breaking the back (length ways) and exited out the rear end. Massive damage. For a big grizzly like the ones you hunt, it would stop it cold. I've seen articles talking about it where it's been used on big big bears and moose and its the &quot;Mike Tyson&quot; of slugs. You gotta use a rifled barrel though if you want accuracy. It's no problem for me, I can switch barrels on several of my shotguns.

Hope that helps.



Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/08/2002 04:05:47

Blain

Heheh, Tha, you just don't get it, do you? Even a &quot;light&quot; 2 3/4&quot; buckshot load has way more stopping power than any .44 magnum round. Not to mention that the buckshot is more damaging to flesh than any single projectile I've ever seen used. Means I see much greaer internal damage and destruction of tissue with buckshot wounds then I even see with slugs.

About the Remington Copper slug, it seems to be right up there as a power slug along with the Brenneke and the Winchester Partian Gold. It would be interesting to put all these slugs to the test and see exactly which one has the most power and penetration against different hard and soft objects. I would put my money on the 3&quot; brenneke.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

memtb

Blain; Could you share some of your big game hunting experiences with the shotgun with the rest of us? Thanks-memtb

&quot;A man has got to know his limitations&quot;, and test them often!

Hk45USP

Blain, this isn't my expert opinion what I'm about to say. This is how it has been explained to me:

The SABOT slugs are made of 100% copper (with some alloy-mixes out there). The metal is much harder than the lead Brenekes or the Fosters. Since the lead is softer, slug &quot;upset&quot; happens more rapidly, thus reducing penetration capabilities as compared to the copper solid Sabot slugs. The Sabots also have a more slender &quot;body&quot; with a more aerodynamic shape to it, closer related to a traditional rifle bullet. Actually, the sabot slug looks like a miniature &quot;hour glass&quot;. Being copper, it doesnt expand or flaten out like lead.

Now, the Remingtons I mentioned earlier above, are actually cut with serations (four as I recall) and open up into a &quot;flower&quot; looking slug after it's struck its target. It's a very controled expansion that is really beneficial on large game such as Bear, Moose & elk.

I've used it on a 400+ lb feral hog and the slug went right through, taking a big chuck of &quot;pork&quot; out the second hole with it. Pig dropped like a buffalo getting hit with a train. I also have used my 416 Remington on pigs and an elk. It hits like &quot;Thor&quot; out of the clouds, but the sabot slug seems to produce more shock trauma on the animals I've used it on. I'd say using on dangerous game like grizzly, polar or even cape buffalo, would be a real &quot;blast&quot; (no pun intended).

With regards to buck shot. Yeah, anything is possible. However, me being in law enforcement, I've personally witnessed a pit bull taking two shots of 2 3/4&quot; copper plated 00 buck (12 pellet magnum version, not the 9 pellet load) and keep running!!! The distance was about 10 yards away.

I've also seen a blast of 00 buck (same 12 pellet load from Winchester, called &quot;Super-XX magnum loads) hit a human in the torso and the guy lived. The range was at about 15 yards. It knocked him on his a$$, but the guy lived to tell about it (in prison).

So, I'd be afraid to use buck shot on a big huge grizzly, unless I was close and hit him in the &quot;computer&quot; (head/face) area. Buck shot is only lead round balls, with a muzzle velocity of about a .357magnum. Hitting a giant bruin 9 or 12 times with a 357mag, but using just lead round balls to me is risky. the lead balls (buckshot) doesn't have the ability to expand or the wieght necessary to penetrate and break big bone etc... Let alone, first tearing through thick fur, hide, several inches of fat, flesh/muscle, and finally striking strong (bear) bone.

I'm sure it's been done lots of times, but it sure wouldnt be my first choice on a bear. Deer, yes no problem within range. Grizzly bear????not me. Maybe you're more confident and better than me with a shotgun. In that case, go for it. Whatever works for you. I've just lost a lot of faith after seeing a man and a dog (with two hits of 00 buck) live another day after sucking up the buck shot.

Hey isn't that why it's called &quot;Buck shot&quot; and not &quot;Bruin or Bear shot&quot;???? Don't think it was designed or meant to be used on large dangerous game.

Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/08/2002 12:42:10

Blain

Hk... I don't know what to say. That Winchester XX 2 3/4&quot; 12 pellet 00 buck load you mentioned is one of the finest on the market, the most powerful 2 3/4&quot; buck load... I am sorry but I have a hard time believing that of all things you shot a pit bull twice with that power load at that distance and it didn't die. What area of the pit did you hit? You know how they say shot placement is key, even a .300 mag wouldn't stop a pit if you didn't place the shot right. How spread out were the pellets, how the hell did the thing not die? I can't imagine it being a good shot, or hitting anything signifigent as a pit is a small animal and I use said 12 pellet load to do a number on large dear.

About the man I am also shocked that said buckshot load didn't kill him. Though I also must ask the same questions, where was shot placement, was the pattern spread out, what was the wound trauma like on the victum? Was the guy down and &quot;out for the count&quot;? Was he near death and only lived after being rushed to the hospital? Did the shot exit him or did it remain inside him, again much of the wound potential depends on how tight the shot pattern was. You would have thought one of those pellets would have struck something vital. I just can't believe that, I mean police agencies usually don't use such a powerful buckshot load. Who's idea was to use such a powerful one? Most use the 9 pellet standard loads of the 9 pellet reduced recoil loads. Funny thing is the recoil reduced loads have a better track record of one shot kills than any other type of buck, even the magnum ones. I wonder why that is. I speculate because the pellets at a lower velocity don't exit the body as fast and cause more shock trauma since they are in the body for alonger duration where as magnum shot will tend to just go right through a man not unlike a full metal jacketed bullet. So magnum buck would be best on bigger game than man where it can remain in the animal more and cause more shock trauma. Who can say, though I am still shocked out of my gord at what you hae said and don't even know if I can accept what you say... though I mean people have been shot and have lived from much more powerful rifles.

From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.

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Thaninator

HK:
Love it...you can just see the look of shock on Blains face <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Better have chased 'em down, and opened that dog, and that man up, and accounted for every single peice of buck shot, our you'll be accused of walking the thin line of fiction <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Seems to me that neither a man nor a pit bull size dog, has that much mass (especially when compared to a brown bear), and there for should be doubly suseptible to the effects of buck shot...if buck shot were effective.

I'd bet even money that if I'd hit them in the brisket with my .44 bear load, they'd be in a world of hurt <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - Thaninator on 01/10/2002 02:40:37