Grizzly Bears
01-06-2002, 01:58 PM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 5
RE: Grizzly Bears
Enjoyued reading your stories i have hunted both black bears and grizzley over the years . Where i hunt thewre are numerous grizz that we encounter on a daily basis. ahving my own pack horses allows me to hunt remote areas not pressured by hunters. In facrt I was one of the first hunter back into an area where bear hunting had be closed for 28 years and just opended up. In 7 days we encountered over 25 bears. if you would like to see a grizz that was harvested at 9 yards check it out at http://www.twangg.com/weber I managed to take a few photos before shooting it.
01-06-2002, 03:31 PM
#13
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: , Alaska USA
Posts: 89
RE: Grizzly Bears
Webber:
Love the "before you shot" pics of the Griz
.
Great looking specimen. You've got a fantastic setup with packhorses, and living in BC. Does your son hunt with you often?
I thought that the Canadian Government was a bit anal about hunting griz, but this all must have changed.
We should talk about swapping hunts some day. I would love to introduce you and your son to Alaska, and I would love to come down to BC and on a hunt (been through many times, but never hunted).
Where you use horses, I use machines. Of the two, I'd prefer horses, but there upkeep is prohibitive for the average joe in Alaska. The next best thing is the proper tracked vehicle, and the knowledge of how to use it.
Looking forward to hearing more from you…keep on posting.
thane
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
Love the "before you shot" pics of the Griz
.Great looking specimen. You've got a fantastic setup with packhorses, and living in BC. Does your son hunt with you often?
I thought that the Canadian Government was a bit anal about hunting griz, but this all must have changed.
We should talk about swapping hunts some day. I would love to introduce you and your son to Alaska, and I would love to come down to BC and on a hunt (been through many times, but never hunted).
Where you use horses, I use machines. Of the two, I'd prefer horses, but there upkeep is prohibitive for the average joe in Alaska. The next best thing is the proper tracked vehicle, and the knowledge of how to use it.
Looking forward to hearing more from you…keep on posting.
thane
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
01-07-2002, 10:14 AM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA United States USA
Posts: 123
RE: Grizzly Bears
“Sweating like a pig, with my much vaunted Beneli 12 gauge propped up against the carcass”
Heh, are you saying that you killed the moose with your Benelli? If so which round did you use and what distance? If the shotgun was just there for defense then what weapon did you use to down the moose with?
“Contrary to what you may have read on Blain's posting, I wouldn't dream of using buck shot for defense against bear.”
So according to your logic your pistol round with little over 1,000 ft/lbs of energy can kill any animal in North America but my magnum buckshot round with over 3,400 ft/lbs of energy can’t? And yes at the distances we are talking the shot is still in the shotcup and is as one projectile. Though I must say you do choose a good slug round, the most powerful 12-gauge slug round on the commercial market. Do you know how powerful and penetrative those babies are? What has been your experience with them? Meaning what kind of damage have you seen them do? Also what sorts of groups can you get with them out of your gun?
From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.
Heh, are you saying that you killed the moose with your Benelli? If so which round did you use and what distance? If the shotgun was just there for defense then what weapon did you use to down the moose with?
“Contrary to what you may have read on Blain's posting, I wouldn't dream of using buck shot for defense against bear.”
So according to your logic your pistol round with little over 1,000 ft/lbs of energy can kill any animal in North America but my magnum buckshot round with over 3,400 ft/lbs of energy can’t? And yes at the distances we are talking the shot is still in the shotcup and is as one projectile. Though I must say you do choose a good slug round, the most powerful 12-gauge slug round on the commercial market. Do you know how powerful and penetrative those babies are? What has been your experience with them? Meaning what kind of damage have you seen them do? Also what sorts of groups can you get with them out of your gun?
From Squirrel to Elephant, the Shotgun is your gun.
01-07-2002, 01:41 PM
#15
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: , Alaska USA
Posts: 89
RE: Grizzly Bears
Blain:
I'd rather not re-open your buckshot vein here, but just for informational purposes:
The .44 round that I use is designed specifically for the harvesting of large game. JD Jones has used it to harvest all the big names in Africa, and I have hunted with it for years.
It is a very long bullet, with an exceptional sectional cross density, and a large frontal mass. It is cast with a special alloy designed to assure that it does not shatter upon impact with heavy bone, and does not mushroom. It is designed with one thing in mind...PENETRATION.
I've shot bull moose with this cartridge from 50 and 100 yards, with complete pass through on both shoulders. It penetrated the shoulder bone, on the front side, and exited through the shoulder bone on the other. The exit hole was the same size as the entrance hole.
Incidentally, the hydrostatic shock on the entrance shoulder is monumental...it has ruined the majority of more than one front quarter, by turning it to jelly.
I do not know the math behind the energy calculations (nor do I put much store by it, preferring instead to field test these things), but this specially designed (for pure penetration) 320 grn. bullet has been consistently chronographed between 1200 and 1400 ft per second.
There are faster and hotter loads out there for the .44, but I would not use them for bear. The key to the whole package is the bullet. With handguns on large game, you must have PENETRATION, or you will fail.
Finally, on the issue of using my .44 for defense (at times) as apposed to the shotgun…pure logistics. I carry my .44 in a shoulder holster when on foot. This assures that it is always with me, whether I'm going to the bathroom, or just hiking around.
The shotgun is a better weapon, but harder to carry.
As to the slug and its performance, the Breniki Rottweil slug in 3" magnum is the widest used bear defense cartridge in Alaska. There are many penetration tests, both clinical and practical, that have been conducted with them. It is the results of these tests that make it the round of issue to all of our state and federal agencies that have to work in bear country, or deal with rogue bears.
My own experience with it is phenomenal. I can unequivocally state that it will penetrate from front to back (enter the chest, and break the pelvic, finally coming to a stop in rump tissue) on large bear, at close range. It is this PENETRATION that is so critical to dropping a charging grizzly…you must be able to break bone, and disembowel with a single shot!
For patterning purposes, let me state that with my Benneli, and using a "walking" (starting low in the chest, and letting the recoil help walk the rounds up the kill zone) pattern style of shooting, from the hip, I can get 3 shots of in as many seconds (or maybe less if I'm really scared ), all placed in the kill zone.
This same slug also performs admirably down range. I've shot it at 75 yards, and still managed to keep it in the kill zone, and have heard of others using it out to 100 yards…not bad for a combat shotgun.
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
I'd rather not re-open your buckshot vein here, but just for informational purposes:
The .44 round that I use is designed specifically for the harvesting of large game. JD Jones has used it to harvest all the big names in Africa, and I have hunted with it for years.
It is a very long bullet, with an exceptional sectional cross density, and a large frontal mass. It is cast with a special alloy designed to assure that it does not shatter upon impact with heavy bone, and does not mushroom. It is designed with one thing in mind...PENETRATION.
I've shot bull moose with this cartridge from 50 and 100 yards, with complete pass through on both shoulders. It penetrated the shoulder bone, on the front side, and exited through the shoulder bone on the other. The exit hole was the same size as the entrance hole.
Incidentally, the hydrostatic shock on the entrance shoulder is monumental...it has ruined the majority of more than one front quarter, by turning it to jelly.
I do not know the math behind the energy calculations (nor do I put much store by it, preferring instead to field test these things), but this specially designed (for pure penetration) 320 grn. bullet has been consistently chronographed between 1200 and 1400 ft per second.
There are faster and hotter loads out there for the .44, but I would not use them for bear. The key to the whole package is the bullet. With handguns on large game, you must have PENETRATION, or you will fail.
Finally, on the issue of using my .44 for defense (at times) as apposed to the shotgun…pure logistics. I carry my .44 in a shoulder holster when on foot. This assures that it is always with me, whether I'm going to the bathroom, or just hiking around.
The shotgun is a better weapon, but harder to carry.
As to the slug and its performance, the Breniki Rottweil slug in 3" magnum is the widest used bear defense cartridge in Alaska. There are many penetration tests, both clinical and practical, that have been conducted with them. It is the results of these tests that make it the round of issue to all of our state and federal agencies that have to work in bear country, or deal with rogue bears.
My own experience with it is phenomenal. I can unequivocally state that it will penetrate from front to back (enter the chest, and break the pelvic, finally coming to a stop in rump tissue) on large bear, at close range. It is this PENETRATION that is so critical to dropping a charging grizzly…you must be able to break bone, and disembowel with a single shot!
For patterning purposes, let me state that with my Benneli, and using a "walking" (starting low in the chest, and letting the recoil help walk the rounds up the kill zone) pattern style of shooting, from the hip, I can get 3 shots of in as many seconds (or maybe less if I'm really scared
), all placed in the kill zone.This same slug also performs admirably down range. I've shot it at 75 yards, and still managed to keep it in the kill zone, and have heard of others using it out to 100 yards…not bad for a combat shotgun.
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If You Ain't Hunted Alaska, You're Still Just Practicing <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
01-08-2002, 01:53 AM
#20
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Los Angeles CA USA
Posts: 192
RE: Grizzly Bears
45 minuets to dress a moose? Man, I shot a little 200lb black bear and it took me a couple hours to "field dress" it alone. And no, I'm not a "beginner" hunter. I've taken black bears, in my time, dozens upon dozens of deer, a few elk, antelope and 1 caribou. It takes time to dress out an animal. (Deer in my opinion is the exception.) Elk and caribou take way more time for me.
But I guess when stressed, you can quickly dress a big animal. Maybe you meant 1hour and 45 min. I don't know. Or, you just hacked away like a chain saw.
Also, the Breneke slugs ARE awesome, .....for a smooth bore. They are the best period. HOWEVER....
If you have a rifled barrel, a copper SABOT slug will and does penetrate beter than a Breneke. Also, range and accuracy with SABOTS/rifled barrels are superior. The only reason I'd suspect that Alaska law enforecement and Fish/game officers carry the Brenekes is because they do not have rifled slugs. Either or, it doesn't matter. I'd use Brenekes in a heart beat. Both slug "systems" work very well. I was just getting "technical" here regarding the best and hardest hitting slugs available in the civilian market. Sabots are the way to go.
One other note,,,,some village in Canada (somewhere way up there, i don't know the name) near the North Pole etc..., uses the good 'ole Remington 870's with regular Foster type 1oz slugs for POLAR BEARS!!!!
I saw a documentary where the "neighborhood-polar-bear-watch" group uses that gun/ammo combo when bears stray too close to the villagers and become "dangerous pests." To date, they haven't lost a "gun fight" with a polar bear and those regular good old fashioned slugs and an old pump gun.
The villagers are, let's say, "poor" and can't afford a "Benelli M3 Super-90" (great gun by the way). With a Foster type slug at modest to close range, shot placement is gonna hurt and bring down a bear. Especially with rapid follow up shots. I'm so comfortable with a smooth bore that I'd use an 870 and Foster slugs without any hesitation.
Also, I agree with Thaninator and the .44mag issue. THe heaviest bullet I use in my Anaconda 6" barrel is a Federal, Premium Hard cast lead bullet (same type of bullet Thaninator was describing) but it's only a 300 grainer. Federal says the bullet is specifically designed for deep penetration on large dangerous game. It worked for me on a Rocky mountain bull elk in Idaho and a California 440lb black bear. No problems. Yes, that's not a 1000lb grizzly, but hey, if that's all I had, I'd use it. Id just try to get off some accurate "double taps" etc...provided I dont cr*p my pants.
I know that the same 300 grain bullet drops wild pigs left and right. One pig I killed was a "charging" wild pig and it dropped him with one shot! I hit him right in the spine just below his shoulder. It broke his "engine compartment" in two pieces. So, those hard alloy bullets in .44mag really penetrate like a hot knife in butter.
I know that my M1-A with a 20 round magazine with 165grain soft points would stop a charging grizzly bear if I HAD to use it in an emergency.....(wishful thinking). All guns (including shotguns with 00 or 000 buck) are capable of killing anything on earth. Maybe not practicle, but definately capable. (Just my humble opinion)
Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/08/2002 03:18:52
But I guess when stressed, you can quickly dress a big animal. Maybe you meant 1hour and 45 min. I don't know. Or, you just hacked away like a chain saw.
Also, the Breneke slugs ARE awesome, .....for a smooth bore. They are the best period. HOWEVER....
If you have a rifled barrel, a copper SABOT slug will and does penetrate beter than a Breneke. Also, range and accuracy with SABOTS/rifled barrels are superior. The only reason I'd suspect that Alaska law enforecement and Fish/game officers carry the Brenekes is because they do not have rifled slugs. Either or, it doesn't matter. I'd use Brenekes in a heart beat. Both slug "systems" work very well. I was just getting "technical" here regarding the best and hardest hitting slugs available in the civilian market. Sabots are the way to go.
One other note,,,,some village in Canada (somewhere way up there, i don't know the name) near the North Pole etc..., uses the good 'ole Remington 870's with regular Foster type 1oz slugs for POLAR BEARS!!!!
I saw a documentary where the "neighborhood-polar-bear-watch" group uses that gun/ammo combo when bears stray too close to the villagers and become "dangerous pests." To date, they haven't lost a "gun fight" with a polar bear and those regular good old fashioned slugs and an old pump gun.
The villagers are, let's say, "poor" and can't afford a "Benelli M3 Super-90" (great gun by the way). With a Foster type slug at modest to close range, shot placement is gonna hurt and bring down a bear. Especially with rapid follow up shots. I'm so comfortable with a smooth bore that I'd use an 870 and Foster slugs without any hesitation.
Also, I agree with Thaninator and the .44mag issue. THe heaviest bullet I use in my Anaconda 6" barrel is a Federal, Premium Hard cast lead bullet (same type of bullet Thaninator was describing) but it's only a 300 grainer. Federal says the bullet is specifically designed for deep penetration on large dangerous game. It worked for me on a Rocky mountain bull elk in Idaho and a California 440lb black bear. No problems. Yes, that's not a 1000lb grizzly, but hey, if that's all I had, I'd use it. Id just try to get off some accurate "double taps" etc...provided I dont cr*p my pants.
I know that the same 300 grain bullet drops wild pigs left and right. One pig I killed was a "charging" wild pig and it dropped him with one shot! I hit him right in the spine just below his shoulder. It broke his "engine compartment" in two pieces. So, those hard alloy bullets in .44mag really penetrate like a hot knife in butter.
I know that my M1-A with a 20 round magazine with 165grain soft points would stop a charging grizzly bear if I HAD to use it in an emergency.....(wishful thinking). All guns (including shotguns with 00 or 000 buck) are capable of killing anything on earth. Maybe not practicle, but definately capable. (Just my humble opinion)
Edited by - Hk45USP on 01/08/2002 03:18:52