.223 for Deer Hunting
 

Let me first say that I know this thread is going to start a huge debate. I live in Wisconsin and this year they just introduce a Mentored hunting Program for 10 - 11 year olds to start hunting. I have a 10 year old daughter who I think really wants to hunt. She is pretty small framed and petite so I dont want to kill her or scare her off with the recoil. She has been shooting a .22LR for about a year and is actually very accurate with it. So now I have to introduce her into her deer rifle but I have been torn between a .223 and a .243... I want to be ethical about it, and I know a .243 is prolbably alot better caliber, but I do feel alot more confident in the recoil factor of the .223.... Any experiences good or bad with a .223..... Thanks

:bash:

.243 is the minimum for deer [clean kill ] get a good recoil pad a " LIMBSAVER" for her rifle and she should be ok ..


http://www.gunaccessories.com/limbsaver/index.asp

you can kill deer with a 22LR , a 223 is only .003 bigger, jus a lil more powder ...some states have a minimum requirement..i would look at that before making and decisions...lol 243 is the minimum lol

The minimum in wisconsin is .22 caliber centerfire

one of my friends said he shot his first deer with a .223 from 200 yards. The other day I shot a coyote with a .223 from 300 yards so they are pretty good guns but a .243 doesn't kick at all just like a
.223 only a bigger caliber, but it's your choice which ever one you feel is best.

.22 caliber is a RIMFIRE

Saying a .243 is minimum for a deer is a personal opinion, not a fact, a law or a caliber higher on the ethics ladder we all reside on. Each person has to weigh their abilities and make the decision for themselves whether the caliber is sufficient given their own hunting conditions.

Yes, we've all seen these threads where perceived marginal calibers are usually a bone of contention whether they should be used or not.

My typical reply is that the smaller caliber being asked about, is usually good enough for deer, but only broadside shots in the heart/lung area should be taken. The scapula, ie, shoulder blade and the large front leg bone are like armor to the deer and could cause a wounded animal if the hit is marginal.

And yes, like many others here, I have taken many deer with smaller calibers with no problems what so ever. My favorite smaller caliber for deer is my Remington 700 .222.

I would have no problems having a young person use a .223 for deer if I can teach them, through a lot of practice, and they can prove to me they have the marksmanship to use the gun. I would also teach them about waiting for the right shot and being patient or they should pass it up. I would teach them to wait for shots within a certain distance as well.

If after you reviewed more information on the use of the .223 for deer and feel it's not an adequate caliber, the .243 can be purchased in bullet weights of 75 or 80gr which may give a lighter recoil.(I use 100gr) In fact, if you have a .243 or the use of one, have her shoot it and ask what she thinks of it.

Something to think about.

iSnipe

I was thinking that too, but you have to remember, Canada's brutes are like our elks. LOL! They summ big o' boys up there!

iSnipe :biggrin:

I tried a 223 many years ago........I am sure it killed every deer I shot. We only found 1 out 3. The one we found ran about 80 yards and piled up. There was not a speck of blood anywhere between the shot location and death location. The other 2 were exactly the same way. NO BLOOD TRAIL at all and we never found um......

I tried a 2 different bullets and still had the same results. If I was gonna use one (223) the only shot I would take is a head or neck. The blood trail from the boiler room is way to inconsistent fo me.

I feel you pain about the kids though....A 223 is very kid friendly. If she has close shots and can hit a head shot I say go for it. If not, get her 243 and good recoil pad. Let her shot it with open sights a few times before adding the pressure of lookin through a scope. She will feel better when the scope does get put on. My 8 year old son weighs 65 lbs and can handle the 243 ok. It just takes a while to get um comfortble to the gun.

heinze57 my friend, you're 0 for 2. LOL!

.22 calibers can be centerfire. Here in MN the hunting regs require a minimum caliber of .220 centerfire. I know it's a matter of intention or wording, but what I think d-n-m meant was similar to what our regs here in MN say.

And yes, it he were speaking of a .22, as in short, long, LR, etc, then you're right, that particular .22 is a RIMFIRE.

iSnipe

I would start her of with a .223 and then move up to the .243 when she gets a little older

Too light for deer sized gaem .... in my opinion.

i was actually kidding..because in canada a deer will die from a 22LR..so a 223 aint the min apparently

I have never seen a kid thats old enough to deer hunt that couldn't handle a .243. If the pop bothers them get ear plugs and if the recoil bothers them get a slip on limbsaver. I won't take a kid deer hunting with anything less than a .243 but I also hate loosing deer. It usually really bothers a kid if they can't find the first deer they shoot. You might let them shoot the 223 some and let them get used to it then step up to the .243 before you take them deer hunting.

I'll tell you what I am wanting to buy a .243 for her and That is what I will stick with. I think in my head I know a .223 is a little weak especially with a marginal shot. I was checking the recoil numbers and a .243 is actually only a few foot pounds more of felt recoil....So Hopefully next year she will be putting the smack down a big ol' Wisconsin Deer....Thanks Guys

the difference is HUGE... a whole .02

Ethically, I'm inclined to say absolutely no less than a 243 but IMO if bullet placement is good then I really don't see any type of problem with using a 223. I mean people kill coyotes out past 300 yds with them. If she can put 'em in the boiler room 9 out of 10 times then I don't see why it wouldn't work.

When our soldiers are fighting back having to kill to defend themselves against adversaries that can be 175lb-250lbs.+, they used the M16. That's designated 5.56mm.... which is very similar to the .223. In the right hands and shot placement, it's a deadly caliber. A .223 can be fired from a 5.56mm.

iSnipe

i wouldn't count on 223 for deer.

Not sure on the type of deer hunting you do (open fields or denser woods)....but if your hunting is shorter range you could try a 357mag lever action rifle? lower recoil than the 243 in my experience.....a 44 mag lever action would work too but I've never fired one in a rifle so not sure how manageable the punch would be.

I consider 357 to be about as practical as a bow for deer hunting in terms of effective range...I wouldn't push it more than 50yds personally. 44 would be a bit more....maybe 80-100 yds?

Just thought i would chime in here. My son weighs about 70lbs and loves his .243. I would suggest that practice time be limited to a smaller gun followed by a few rounds of 243 at some good reactive target's like large bottles filled with water. The reaction and anticipation of the bottles going BOOM is very similar to hunting in that you hardly notice any recoil. I would also add that they make great long range targets for dads.

My wifes first deer was with a .223. The bullet didnt have enough energy to pass throught the other side. Bullet ended up bouncing off the rib cage and went up to snap the back bone. Dropped the doe on the spot, but if it had not hit the back bone it would have been a hard track with only the entrance hole.

When you answer to the .223 questions includes "In the right hands" then it should be obvious that the answer is an emphatic NO in the hands of a kid. End of story.

I have killed or seen killed many of deer with all types fo 22 caliber center fire..

When a fellow hunter says he has trained his daughter for a year and has shown marksmanship by iterating "is actually very accurate with it", that is not something to be taken lightly. I have faith in him to oversee his daughter's welfare along with the integrity of hunting to teach what is right. To foolishly say in reference to her, is not in the right hands, is an insult. I have faith in deernmusky to safely show his daughter the ways of handling a gun. However, when faith is not in one's own life, they can't have faith in others.

Rock on deernmusky!

iSnipe

Use the 60 gr Nosler Partition and she will be fine...

Most on here have no experience with the .22 centerfires and deer...

I have to chime in too.

In my experience, ethics must play a part in the choice of caliber. I'm sorry hawkeye, but the .223 is not IMO an ethical choice for deer hunting no matter the experience level.

A persons accuracy plays a good part in the the ability to kill an animal with a given weapon. However, at 11 years of age, the excitement level of seeing the first deer blows the ability to accurately shoot a weapon out the window. We have all been there, and many have missed that first deer because of "buck fever".
We have also wounded a few, I would hate for deernmuskies daughter to lose her first because of a poorly placed shot, or lose it because the deer didn't pile up immediately.

Berate me all you want, but the .223 is NOT an ethical choice for deer hunting.

[QUOTE=deernmusky;3480027]Let me first say that I know this thread is going to start a huge debate. I live in Wisconsin and this year they just introduce a Mentored hunting Program for 10 - 11 year olds to start hunting. I have a 10 year old daughter who I think really wants to hunt. She is pretty small framed and petite so I dont want to kill her or scare her off with the recoil. She has been shooting a .22LR for about a year and is actually very accurate with it. So now I have to introduce her into her deer rifle but I have been torn between a .223 and a .243... I want to be ethical about it, and I know a .243 is prolbably alot better caliber, but I do feel alot more confident in the recoil factor of the .223.... Any experiences good or bad with a .223..... Thanks

:bash:[/QUOTE}
Federal Preium, Barnes Triple Shock X-Bullet 55gr. shoul do a great job for your daughter

[QUOTE=deernmusky;3480027]Let me first say that I know this thread is going to start a huge debate. I live in Wisconsin and this year they just introduce a Mentored hunting Program for 10 - 11 year olds to start hunting. I have a 10 year old daughter who I think really wants to hunt. She is pretty small framed and petite so I dont want to kill her or scare her off with the recoil. She has been shooting a .22LR for about a year and is actually very accurate with it. So now I have to introduce her into her deer rifle but I have been torn between a .223 and a .243... I want to be ethical about it, and I know a .243 is prolbably alot better caliber, but I do feel alot more confident in the recoil factor of the .223.... Any experiences good or bad with a .223..... Thanks

:bash:[/QUOTE}
Federal Preium, Barnes Triple Shock X-Bullet 55gr. should do a great job for your daughter

sconnyhunter,

We sit on opposites sides of the argument ye or nay for the .223. Some of what you say, I agree with totally... and some, well, LOL!... I don't.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I appreciate your civility in the manner in which you shared your opinion.

On an after-thought, you brought a good point about the buck fever issue we all go through during the heat of the moment and if a youngster can handle it... and I have to say that's a good answer for against.

Still I could argue it could happen with any caliber... and again could argue that 100% of the deer broadside shot in the heart/lung area will be dead... but I won't. LOL!

Your opinions are noted and with good cause. Good job.

iSnipe

I would recommend the .243. It has very minimal kick and gives a pretty substantial margin for error over the .223. Almost double the bullet size if you compare a 55 grain to a 100 grain bullet. In my opinion someone using a .223 should have the experience to judge shot distance and shot placement is more critical.

I know the .223 will kill any deer out there. I have killed deer with them. You don't want her to lose her first deer because of a not perfect shot.

iSnipe, I don't think we are different sides of the point because hawkeye is correct in thier point, experience is a huge factor in killing a deer. For the expereinced hunter the .223 may be an ethical choice.
My opinion is that it is not for a new hunter (minor first time out).

Yeah, I have to fully agree with you, I still get buck fever myself at the ripe old age of 31. :biggrin:

IMHO get the .243, top it with a nice scope and go to the range. You can pick up a low price youth model breech opening rifle fairly cheap and it will make a great starter rifle. I started my grandsons off with one and it won't be long before my 7 year old granddaughter will be shooting the same rifle. The grandsons moved up to a .270.

so a .22/250 is a rimfire? Hopefully somebody has already corrected you.

rogerstv, I ribbin'ly made a post in regards to heinz' post; so yeah, he knows.

==========
halfbaked, if you read my apply again, I'm sure you would tell I was kidding and I knew you were kidding. I was just having some fun. It took me a while too, back in the day, to figure the nuance of the .22 being more than just a rimfire.

Hang in there buddy!

iSnipe

Ripe old age? Yeah, right. You still smell like baby powder. :biggrin:

iSnipe

So now I am not only similar to a Halocaust denier because I know that deer don't have a 6th sense, but a faithless hethen that has no faith in fellow hunters because I find major faults in the concepts of organized religion and the indoctrination they put forth.

By the way, I have never been the subject of someone's signature line. Kinda feel honored.

A .223 is perfectly fine to kill a deer as long as the shot placement is precise. I shot a deer last year during Pennsylvania's rifle season with a 50 gr. bullet out of a 22-250 and the deer went ten yards and pilled up. Like I said shot placement has to be precise. I personally do not feel that you could run a 50 gr. bullet through a shoulder but if you run it right through the lung area you should have no problem. I will say the bullet blew the lungs to pieces however there was no exit wound in the animal because the bullet fragmented to pieces. I believe a .223 is perfectly fine as long as the shooter behind the gun is good enough to make the right shot. I would also recommend looking into a limbsaver recoil pad. If you place a recoil pad on a .243 it would be just like shooting a .223 only you'll have more knock down power behind it. But either caliber is fine. Good luck this year, hope she'll bag a big one.

my 2 cents is go with the 243 and put a good recoil pad on it. then to take it a step further if you reload then you could have a deer and varmint gun. if you go up to the "2009-2010 deer hunting braggin' board" , you will see a picture of a nice mule my roomate took this year with a savage 243. i work up some handloads for this. i also have a 223 that i have for a back up also, but then again i have been shooting it for a long time and ,I WOULD FEEL COMFORTABLE USING IT. rember shot placemnt is what counts.

Thanks Mark

.223 is too small for an amature hunter

personally seen deer shot with 22 hornet last year didnt like the idea of it and tryed to talk the young girl into practicing with my grlfriends 243 but no way was not happening not wanting to deny her her youth day hunt we went with the hornet took a deer a littl bit back just grazed lungs did not exit from 45 yards. no blood trail whatsoever deer went 100 yards tops. and layed down we didnt wait long enough and jumped her. went home had breakfast, called in some help, waited a couple hours and founf it within another 50 yards of jumping.
my advice would be with any of the small calibers would be to give them extra time and get help to track bloodtrail may not exist