Both my boys killed their first deer with a .20 ga, which kicks more than a .243. My oldest son killed his second deer with a .243 at age 10 and he's been using it ever since. After seeing the .243's results on deer, I bought my own .243 for deer / coyote and leave the .300 WSM for truly big game.

The .243 is perfect for a 10 year old IMO

9 of 10 top spots in NHC means nothing in the world of deer hunting. (assumeing they were not inexperienced kids)

Killing a praire dog at 1115 means nothing in the world of deer hunting (an inexperienced kid?)

who shoots at deer over 1 mile??? (this one had to be done by a kid that has been shooting for less then a year)

If you are excited and start deer hunting because of a gun (not the actual hunt), then I say you are hunting for all the wrong reasons

.223 or .300, there is no excuse for gutshot deer with a gun. It is the sign of poor marksmanship and/or unethical shooting practices.

I have nothing more to contribute to the 223 debate.

I have read you posts before and know your affinity and skill for extreme long range shooting. I have no doubt that a shooter of your caliber can weild a 223 like a death ray when it comes to harvesting deer. Hunters with your marksmanship skills are rarer then few and far between. To impart your marksmanship skills and ability on the hunting population that as a whole group is marginal at best when it comes to marksmanship and think they can accomplish the same feats you can is overreaching plain and simple.

The standard of 1000ft/lbs is the rule I use and will always use when it comes to harvesting a deer. The average 55 grain 223 has about 1100 ft/lbs at the muzzle and drops below the 1000 threshold relatively soon after leaving the barrel. I have a 9 year old daughter that would love to harvest a deer. But she is not of the stature to handle a gun that fires ammo that produces the energy requirements I set forth. Untill she can, no deer hunting.
I am not bending my own rules just to get her in the feild to harvest a deer with marginal killing equipment.

I am curious to how all the pro 223 posters feel about using a 223 on something like an elk. The bull or cow will fall to a well placed broadside shot into the lungs (the argument used to justify using it on deer). I imagine none of you would even consider it as a viable elk round though.

Never said I have not made a bad shot. I did take a shot at a deer that I never should have taken (walking at 200 yards, not my skill set) I regret that shot to this day. Luckily the deer traveled down a fencerow to my dad who killed him. With taht said, I have never made a bad shot on a deer that was within my skills (standing at no more the 125 yards). I don't shoot at running deer either.

I have no doubt that a deer can be killed with less the 1000 ftlbs of NRG. Hell I do it with about 80 lbs outta my bow, but the terminal performance from a broadhead is a lot different then that of a bullet. Anyhow, as far as depriving my kid from hunting is my choice not years. My opinion is largely derived from an experience I had with a friend of mine when we started hunting at 10. He was shooting at .45 cal muzzleloader loaded with a patched round ball sitting on 60 grains of powder. He could shoot baseball sized groups with his Hawken at 50 yards. Opening morning of his first day hunting he has a small buck broadside within 50 yards. He is hunting with his dad. Gets set pulls trigger and hit s the deer in the front shoulder. I am sure millions of deer have fallen to a 45 cal ML. just like this one did. Oh I forgot to mention, they found the deer a week later about 1/2 mile from the shot. First hunt first deer all a failure attibuted to a underpowered gun in the hands of a novice shooter that could cut holes from the bench. To this day, my friend still suffers confidence issues from that initial hunt. My kids has lots of time hunt in front of her. Why risk the future for a little fun and pleasure today should she suffer the same situation as my first hunting buddy did 2o years ago????

Back in the late 60s and early 70s I used a 22-250 for damage permit hunting, at that time we had a local law prohibiting centerfires over .22 caliber...I killed 50-60 deer with that gun and 55gr Remington bullets...When I started this practice I wasn't old enough to drive and my dad would drop me off on one of the farms and pick me up after dark...

Funny, those deer didn't care that I was only 13-14 years old....Those hit in the lungs ran 75-100 yards and keeled over, those hit at the base of the neck dropped right there...

Fast forward about 30 years...My younger brother picked up a used 22-250 on a trade, had me sight it in with 60gr Nosler Partitions...

My niece has killed 14 deer with this gun over the past 5-6 years...

Dang deer didn't notice that she was 14 when she started...Only 2 ever took another step and all had nice exit holes...

I started my son off at the age of 8 with a .223 because of recoil and he used it for 3 years until I bought him a .243. He shot 4 deer with the .223 and none went more than 75 yds. I would certainly recommend the .243 over the .223 because of the better chances for a good bloodtrail but I would still start off a very young hunter with the .223 which they will enjoy shooting more and have more accuracy because of the lighter recoil. If they put the bullet where it needs to be the .223 will be fine!

You need to check your state regulations first. Then go from there. Here, .243 is the minimum.

.243 was my first deer rifle. Of course, I was no where near petite at 13 years old...but I had no problems shooting the .243 caliber.

I would get the .243 just because of more power, and not that much difference in recoil. Get her a heavier gun (to reduce muzzle jump) and get her a good recoil pad. She should be fine.

My first deer was with a AR-15 .223. She"ll be fine, just make sure she knows where the heart is ;)

Get her a .243 with the 100 grain; put a real good recoil pad on it; although I don't know why---a .243 does not kick what-so-ever. A
.223 will kill deer, in the hands of someone who knows what their doing---not for an inexperienced kid.

And a .243 is so much better because it's so much bigger? LOL! Please.

iSnipe

Just 100% heavier at times.

First off your wrong. .22 hornet is a centerfire. and its .22. a .22 short and long are rimfire.

And secondly .243 is not minimum. Maybe in your opinion but it would still make you wrong.

to me...i like it that the 22 cals go inside and bounce around, causes more damage than a through and through...i think thats why its the deadliest round there is

BS..............

did i mention we are debating over .02 of an inch?:nonono2:

BS? have you heard of the guy that got shot in the chest with a .22 and the bullet came out of his leg?

dimbulb
that's just silly. There's a dramatic diff in power between a .22LR and .223 - huge diff.

LOL, indeed.

.223 will work, with caveats expressed by many here - the main one being, under expert guidance (that puts me out of the running). Broadside through ribs into heart/lungs, with hunting bullet? Dead deer (though may run a bit, just as with anything else). I think it's a bit light, when there are so many better choices, but it would do. .243 is a lot more bullet (but still light, IMHO). It the kid is a deadeye with discipline to pass up on less-than-ideal angles, it would do (again, that puts me out of the running)

I've a friend in GA whose daughter used a .223 NEF single-shot. She got several deer... then nailed a very large (around 180lbs) buck. Great shot, to the shoulder. They spent half the day tracking that deer - it laid down several times - finally shotgunned it. Point is - it was great shot placement for a 30-30 or bigger, but not a .223. She's moving up in to a bigger gun (I voted 30-30)

I personally would look to a heavier bullet. 243 is a lot more than .223, despite what some internet dimbulbs will tell you. It won't kick all that much, and will have all the range a youngster can use.

still... I vote 30-30. sufficiency, and light kicking in 150gr.

IMHO, of course...

are ya sayin a 22lr cannot kill a deer...i was by no means sayin ethically kill a deer......i was sayin any bullet will kill...and ya kno where ya can stik ur dimbulb ehhhh

No, I did not say that. I will say that it isn't a good idea if you're hunting and expect to recover your deer (and don't want legal probs).

I am saying that considering a .22LR and .223 to be in any way comparable, separated only by bore diff (?) indicates... Dimbulb status, regardless of where you stick it.

once again Cacti

i was sayin any bullet will kill..good lord get the dimbulb out from in front of ur face..anybullet will kill..plz be safe with any type of gun, even bows and arrows, a target tip on an arrow will kill too!!!


this is a tragic event , i just want everyone to know guns and bullets are designed to kill

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...6-da35af20f42a

do you all know a .22 LR will out penetrate a .223 on ballistic gell.

Penetration has NOTHING to do with it.

My nephew shot a deer with a 300 win mag a couple weeks ago and the bullet stuck in the hide on the far side.:s4:

say that on a charging cape buffallo
:s4:

I don't think anybody is going to try and hunt cape buffalo with a .22

DUH!
The point was, he said penetration doesnt mean anything, and he had a wink on the end oh.. forget it if you dont get it.

I do, i thought you meant that someone would use a .22. my bad, but still penetration is part of it but not ALL of it.

When dealing with high caliber rifles you want a transference of energy and if the bullet stops in the animal,all the energy gets transferred,unlike with a bow where you want penetration.

Naturally,you need enough penetration to get through the hide and bone that is encountered upon entry but beyond that,it isn't the main goal.

Of course,thicker boned animals like elephant need more penetration than whitetail but we aren't looking for passthroughs.

Actually during the hay day of time meaing the Great Depression a lot of deer were killed illegaly by the 22lr.. People were out putting food on thier table and never cared much about anything else back in those days.. The 22 center fire nicknamed the 22 hortnet is legal in this state. Some have actually shot moose with it as well as a 22 magnum.. So I have no doubt about the 223 being capable to take deer out with.
I do recomend plenty of taget practice with it though. But then again I recomend that with any gun used for hunting. They call it making your shots count. Some folks can shoot good while some folks can't and it doesn't make any difference in what your using for a rifle.. A wounded deer doesn't really care what you shot it with. There has been plenty wounded that has gotten away and died though. That is with almost any weapon you can use.. So target practice is a must for any hunter whether new or old. I know of some people that take the gun out of the gun cabinet with out shooting it at all. That is because it shot good last year and have no idea if the gun has been bumped. This can easily throw a scope off or even in some cases the sights on it as well. Therefore it is important to do at least a little target practice every year before you go hunting..

I was referring to his post about hunting cape buffalo with one, I know what a .22 will do a deer. lol

Sorry I bad! I missunderstood reading all these posts on here about it..

yeah, but if someone here will pay my way, I'll hunt the buff with a muzzleloader. Or 30-30.

send the checks... :s2:

I thought this "theory" was pretty much discredited as a bunch of hokum...


What if you "transfer" all your energy penetrating the hide and the bone and then only get another 1/8" of penetration?


The concept of "transferring all the energy" inside the game is absurd from a physics standpoint. What would you really rather have, a bullet that hits the front shoulder with 2500 ft lbs of energy, and then penetrates and hits the back shoulder with 2100 ft lbs of energy and then exits, or a bullet that hits the front shoulder with 2500 ft lbs of energy but, doesn't penetrate to the far shoulder, thus, that shoulder gets hit with 0 ft lbs? The energy transfers during the full penetration event. The first bullet will hit the front shoulder at 2500, the first lung at 2400, the heart at 2300 the second lung at 2200. The second bullet hits the front shoulder at 2500, the first lung at 1750, the heart at 1000, the second lung at 250, and then pretty much bounces harmlessly off the rear shoulder. If the bullet is slowing down to the point that it fails to penetrate, it's going to transfer less and less and less energy as it slows. The first animal's various organs are hit by a cumulative energy transfer of 11,500 ft lbs. The second gets hit by 5500.

I haven't done the math, but, also dealing with a 50-75% heavier bullet...

yes it has.
kinetic energy has never killed a thing, never will.
But you knew that already.

Yep. Seems to me it's the tissue damage caused during the penetration event that kills the animal.

I've always thought it was odd when folks talk about transferring all the energy inside the animal. Seems kinda crazy to imagine that when a bullet hits at 2500 ft lbs, and exits at 2000 ft lbs, it's somehow only dumped 500 ft lbs inside the animal. I would think that the more energy the bullet retains as it passes through, the more damage it is doing while passing through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by halfbakedi420
did i mention we are debating over .02 of an inch?

I haven't done the math, but, also dealing with a 50-75% heavier bullet... Bingo! Bingo! I was wondering when someone would mention this!

I used to be in the "too small" camp regarding .224 cal centerfires on deer, but with the fairly recent introduction of true big game bullets in .224", I'm not so sure anymore. In fact, I'm curious enough that I might just try poking a 55 grain Barnes TSX through a deer just to see how fast it really dies, probably from a .22-250 Rem. .224 cal CF's are legal in the rifle parts of MN, so maybe if I go up there next year I'll take one along and find out for myself.

Mike

How does a deer die from being hit by a car? There is no penetration.Of course there is massive trauma but what caused it?

Think about this,small calibers don't kill as fast as large calibers,WHY? Both the small caliber and large penetrate through the lungs and neither stops inside the animal,which one will be a faster kill?

Or both stop inside the animal,which one will cause the quicker death.


Hit a deer in the shoulder and the bullet doesn't penetrate into the heart lung area,it will still die if it is a large enough caliber,this will not hapeen with a small caliber.KE does kill but like most of you,I prefer to have a hole through the heart, lungs.

I have chosen loads to have complete penetration through both sides when in the hands of a child because I want blood in case of a bad hit.

You cant use a 22 rim fire but you can use a 22Mag Centerfire. There is a little difference. The 22Mag is not a very popular load but it is sold in most sporting good stores.

so then how does a bow and arrow kill with only 50lb KE ?
How come I can kill a cow with a .22LR with only 120 lb KE
How come when someone places a bad shot on an animal with a 300 mag and 2500 lbs KE the deer is never found. I mean come on, you just blasted him with 2500 ft lbs kinetic energy why didnt he die.

Why are there soldiers walking around with bullet wounds, how come that kinetic energy didnt kill them.