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Im not a big fan of deer hunting with a 223 ...I shot a buck with one several years back ...it was at about 100 yards in the woods ..the first shot he never even flinched ..so I shot a second time ...still was not sure if I had hit him ...when I got out of my stand to check I found very little blood ...I finally found the deer ...when we filed dressed him we found that both shots had conected...the deer inside was nothing but jello and the exit wound was so small that there was just not much of a blood trail.
dd |
One thing that I notice with the above (hand drawn, so there is no guarantee of accurate scale) representations, is that the scale is different between the .223 illustration and the 30-30 one. Assuming that the pictures are accurately drawn, if one scales up the 30-30 illustration to match the horizontal scale of the 223 illustration, then the 30-30 permanent wound channel is virtually the same size vertically, the temporary stretch channel is larger, and the penetration is almost 22cm (about 9 inches) deeper. 23.5cm is 9.25", which is just deep enough to go through the vitals of a deer, assuming only soft tissue is encountered and the shot is direct through the ribs broadside. Since the above tests seem to have been conducted without hitting bone, we don't know how the .223 would perform attempting to pass through the shoulder, and on a quartering shot, the penetration would be marginal to inadequate. The 30-30, on the other hand, demonstrates roughly twice the penetration of the 223, which would suggest that it would have far fewer problems penetrating bone and dense muscle, or driving deep enough to get through to vitals on a quartering/shot.
I would also say that the bullet used for the 223 test was a 50 grain SP which, based on the age of the data being sometime between 1981 and 1988, would have likely been a varmint bullet. A modern .224" bullet designed for more controlled expansion and in a heavier weight meant for deer sized game, like the Barnes TSX or Nosler Partition, would likely demonstrate better penetration at the cost of a somewhat narrower wound channel than a fragmenting varmint bullet creates by virtue of near instant disintegration on contact. Mike |
Your obviously not understanding what you are reading and not even comprehending what you are referencing.You obviously don't know how velocity/mass= ke.Then add to that bullet design and actually trying to make the bullet yaw so it will slow down.Remember,my argument in my original response was that penetration is not the main objective and said nothing about having MORE ke,it was in reference to utilizing the ke.
I never stated not to use the .223,but I do not reccomend them.There are too many much better option for kids.I don't like a 30/30 either(personal preference) and I have killed plenty deer with both.I prefer the 7mm-08,.270,.260,.308 and all are manageable for kids with light loads.My reasoning is pretty simple,kids get shook(buck fever) regardless of how good they shoot off the bench.They make less than desirable shots.I prefer to have the absolute most amount of damage possible on these kinds of hits.I have several nephews and 2 kids of my own and have tracked SEVERAL deer from the .223 and .243 because of this and these kids can shoot.
Originally Posted by zrexpilot
(Post 3489913)
Tfox your obviously seeing what you want too see, that graph shows me that the difference in bullets is what makes the difference not KE
Heres another graph Note the .223 has less KE than the 30-30 and the 12 gauge slug but has a bigger wound channel. Velocity baby ! The .223 Remington has a KE value of 1102 fpe.  The 30-30 has a KE value of 1536 fpe  The Foster type rifled slug has a KE value of 2222 fpe.  |
that graph shows me that the difference in bullets is what makes the difference not KE Velocity baby Creating bullet yaw upon entry slows the bullet making it utilize the POTENTIAL ke. Saying ke has never killed an animal like you stated is a very innacurate statement.velocity and mass create ke. So please,quit arguing for arguments sake and take time to read my post and understand them. |
zrexpilot
Go actually read the whole article you got those pictures from.Pretty good read.I agree with most everything it says but one thing.They try to separate energy from stress.I disagree with this assesment.The 2 are interwoven imo. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3D60%26um%3D1 |
Originally Posted by driftrider
(Post 3489957)
One thing that I notice with the above (hand drawn, so there is no guarantee of accurate scale) representations, is that the scale is different between the .223 illustration and the 30-30 one. Assuming that the pictures are accurately drawn, if one scales up the 30-30 illustration to match the horizontal scale of the 223 illustration, then the 30-30 permanent wound channel is virtually the same size vertically, the temporary stretch channel is larger, and the penetration is almost 22cm (about 9 inches) deeper. 23.5cm is 9.25", which is just deep enough to go through the vitals of a deer, assuming only soft tissue is encountered and the shot is direct through the ribs broadside. Since the above tests seem to have been conducted without hitting bone, we don't know how the .223 would perform attempting to pass through the shoulder, and on a quartering shot, the penetration would be marginal to inadequate. The 30-30, on the other hand, demonstrates roughly twice the penetration of the 223, which would suggest that it would have far fewer problems penetrating bone and dense muscle, or driving deep enough to get through to vitals on a quartering/shot.
I would also say that the bullet used for the 223 test was a 50 grain SP which, based on the age of the data being sometime between 1981 and 1988, would have likely been a varmint bullet. A modern .224" bullet designed for more controlled expansion and in a heavier weight meant for deer sized game, like the Barnes TSX or Nosler Partition, would likely demonstrate better penetration at the cost of a somewhat narrower wound channel than a fragmenting varmint bullet creates by virtue of near instant disintegration on contact. Mike I agree with everything you said. I dont reccomend a .223 either, unless I was the one behind it. wink wink. The whole thing I am trying to prove is kinetic energy has no bearing on lethality. 2500 ft/lb of energy doesnt equal a yugo crashing into a deer, the truth is a bullets impact is that of a fast pitch hard ball, thats the actuall force a deer feels. Roughly the recoil you feel is about the same as the impact on the deer. Newton law, equal and opposite reaction. |
:biggrin:
Originally Posted by zrexpilot
(Post 3490169)
Roughly the recoil you feel is about the same as the impact on the deer.
Haven't read all that you posted, but I won't say "BS" to what you said above, but I will politely say... "I disagree with that". In fact, how about I get my .338 Lapua out, you put on some body armour and let me shoot at your chest/stomach, and we'll see if you still hold that statement to be your opinion? I'd have no problem doing it because by your words, my shoulder should feel the same as your chest/stomach. Correct? iSnipe |
Originally Posted by iSnipe
(Post 3490202)
:biggrin:
zrex, Haven't read all that you posted, but I won't say "BS" to what you said above, but I will politely say... "I disagree with that". In fact, how about I get my .338 Lupua out, you put on some body armour and let me shoot at your chest/stomach, and we'll see if you still hold that statement to be your opinion? I'd have no problem doing it because by your words, my shoulder should feel the same as your chest/stomach. Correct? iSnipe Can I watch :biggrin: |
Dang it TFOX! You 'bout made me choke on my toothpick!
LOL! iSnipe |
Former Sniper chiming in; Voice of Reason
Originally Posted by Ridge Runner
(Post 3482360)
Ok, several times a year this thread comes up, always the same guys using the same reasons as to why it won't work, why its not ethical, and why it shouldn't be done. and how many times have they tried the 223 on deer? about as many as these same guys who say you shouldn't kill a deer at 1000 yards, truth is they don't have a clue what the 223 is capable of but form an opinion anyway.
Why do I get irate about it? cause I know the 223 is an adequate deer rifle, I've taken at least 100 with them. shoot a deer with a 60 gr partition or a 64 gr win. power point and I guarrantee you you can't nor can the deer tell it from a 243 with an 85 gr partition. They make deer bullets in .224 for a reason! You read the posts about no blood trail, no exit wound, etc. that BS is for guys who can't track. 50 yards from impact a lung shot deer is blowing blood from the nose and mouth, find that and you'll recover your deer. My daughter is 11 now, she doesn't like recoil like the last generation of masochists do, she has a 243, even with youth loads she's uncomfortable with the recoil so she uses a 223 loaded with good bullets and she puts the smack down on them. sure she's a bit inexperienced, she gets excited, its my job to keep her calm and focused on the task at hand. If she loses control its my fault, but she's successful and has fun and doesn't dread pulling the trigger on her new 250/3000 savage because she experienced deer hunting with a rifle that would kill a deer and didn't scare her. To all you nay sayers here is a list of what a 223 has done took 9 of 10 top spots in the national highpower comps. killed a prairie dog at 1,115 yards shot under 1 MOA groups at 1 mile got thousands of kids and females excited about deer hunting cause its a pleasant rifle to shoot and it works. A gutshot deer doesn't know a 223 from a 300 win mag. RR Yes and everything you say is true regarding the 5.56. I have killed at just over 1000 meters. I have punched targets at over 1200 meters with the 7.62mm. Kills have been made in Iraq and the Afghanistan with the 5.56 at 600 to 800 meters. I have killed deer with 5.56 at 200 meters and at 700 with the 7.62mm. Point 1. Combat is combat. If I'm trying to kill my enemy I don't care what I use. Rifleman are trained to engage the enemy out to 500 meters for a point target. DMR shooters out to 700 or 800+ meters. Snipers-with the right weapon as far as you can see 'em. 7.62mm has done it out to 1200 m and then some. .338 Lapua 1600 m. 408 Cheytac and .50 BMG out to 2500 meters. 2400 is a mile and a half folks. BUT that is combat! Ethics here are not what they are on the field of hunting. Point 2 Punching holes in targets is not HUNTING! Yes it helps prepare one for it but it is not the actual act. Many men have shot targets at 1000 meters only to choke at their first “time”. Yes the 5.56x45 with 77 grain and 80+ grains are winning the Camp Perry matches at F Compition and the Wimbledon Cup and 7.62x51 was doing some years before that. But that is still not hunting. Yes, I've taken deer at 200 meters with the 5.56 and with a Mini 14 (180 Series, first one) for most of my younger life and with a 30-30. I knew the limitations of the round and used it in that envelope. The 7.62x51 was used on a Buck at a little over 700 meters on the farm. My family has always been military and stories of my father killing men at 600 meters with a M1 Rifle as well as those before him have been handed down. We have always been shooters and practiced our art. Would my father have taken a long shot at a deer? Only if there was no other way to feed his men or his family. He did this in WW2 during the Battle of the Bulge to feed his men. As the story go close to 1000 meters or yards for his day. Broke the deer’s back. But they had full stomachs and it was an extreme circumstance. Long Range Hunting is a special group all to itself and these hunters practice, practice, practice. They know the weapon and the round inside and out. Ethics, ethics my friends. We as hunters are watched by PETA, Humane Society and all of the other anti-gun, hunting nuts. We must act accordingly. Or have our birthright demonized and with the sentiment of our present AG and President along with most in Congress we must jealousy guard that right. The answer to deernmusky's question is; How long has she been shooting\hunting? Can she consistently hit targets at the same range she will be hunting at? "Let me first say that I know this thread is going to start a huge debate. I live in Wisconsin and this year they just introduce a Mentored hunting Program for 10 - 11 year olds to start hunting. I have a 10 year old daughter who I think really wants to hunt." I also take it he wants his daughter to hunt and her first experiences of taking game animals a good one. Not one that will be her horror at having an inhumane kill and never wanting to hunt again. |
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What a Great Day. My Daughter shot a great 8 point at 8:30 this morning. Saw 10 deer total. 8 does. A Big 10 pt that was out of range, and the 8 pt that she took at 120 yrds with a .223 T/C. Perfect lung shot and only 30 yrds down. She killed her first deer a spike last year at 6yrs old and today at 7yrs old an 8pt.
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Awesome picture! That's one happy little girl right there, and I'd bet Dad had a pretty big silly grin too!
As far as the .223 or .243 debate.....I'd say she should shoot what she can shoot accurrately. I'm not advocating hunting deer with a .22 long rifle, though many have been killed with one. The way I see it, if they develop a flinch from the recoil, it doesn't matter how much more energy they would transfer to the target....a marginal shot is a marginal shot. I have 2 daughters that hunt. The oldest is 10 and has now killed 3 deer. The first two she killed with a .22 hornet.....a .22 caliber centerfire round. Both dropped in their tracks from well placed shots at close range...furthest was about 70 yards. The last one was a small spike taken with a .243. Again, 70 yards or so broadside. She made a perfect heart shot and the buck piled up within sight of the stand. My youngest daughter isn't big enough to handle the recoil from a .243 out of an ultralight youth model single shot. She shoots a .223. Loaded with nosler partition bullets, I'm very confident it will kill a deer. We've established her effective range of about 80 yards for her with it. Again, accuracy is the key. GH GH |
Long time thread it looks like so I better get in on it! Everyone is entitled to opinions and we get to express them on here, so thanks to Huntingnet forums for that!
I believe that a .223 is an ethical deer hunting cartridge. You must be a little bit choosier with your shot selection and a lot more careful with bullet selection. I would never take a shot at the shoulder with one, but a lung shot is perfect for that caliber. I do the same thing archery hunting, I do my best not to put my arrow through their shoulder, but a bit behind it into the lungs because I use expandable broadheads. It is the same idea, you put that bullet into its lungs and heart, it will drop that deer. A well placed .223 is better than a .338 Winchester Magnum in the deer's haunch! |
My first two deer kills were with a break action .223. Granted the first one was a poor shot right through both front knees and it had to be put down with a neck shot later on. but the other was close to a 110-130 inch 8pt shot right behind the shoulder with a 64 grain partition. took the hit like he didn't care, ran thirty yards up hill and collapsed into a cactus. probably weighed about 150 lbs. little partition blew a .22 size hole in one side and a quarter out of the other, perfect clean behind the shoulder shot.
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