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Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....

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Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....

Old 12-28-2002, 07:38 PM
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 947
Default RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....

I like model722's idea of buck restriction for a year or 2. Although, I do think AR's will work. I do think the majority of illegal bucks are being turned in. Hopefully the hunters who haven't turned in their illegal bucks didn't get a shot at another buck and took a doe. If AR's dont' work, I would be all for a buck drawing. Everyone gets a doe tag with license and get your name in a drawing for a buck tag. Probably make ALOT of hunters mad, but if that's what it takes to fixed our problem, so be it.

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Old 12-29-2002, 06:26 AM
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Walker LA USA
Posts: 443
Default RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....

Earn a buck or drawing for buck tags? What if the deer of a lifetime walks out and you did'nt win the lottery or haven't killed a doe yet?
This really is'nt that complicated folks.In Miss. we had the same problem.Too many deer and too few bucks.The solution is simple,shoot more does and let young bucks walk.It really is that simple.The state changed the bag limit to 3 bucks with 4 points or better and 5 does.They were sending the message we want you to shoot more does than bucks.We want you to let the 1 1/2 old bucks walk.It has worked for us.Yes people bitched and complained the first couple of years.But now that people are seeing and killing more mature bucks you don't hear too much complaining.Deer management in many states will be changing.People don't like change,it's human nature.I remember when we first started hunting our lease.It was taboo to kill does.The old timers would'nt allow it.They grew up in a time of few deer.Establishing deer numbers was the goal.Then when numbers began increasing the state tried to get hunters to shoot more does.Alot of people said we would wipe out the deer herd.It has'nt happened.Now that some states are trying to balance the sex ratio because of over harvest of young bucks some people are resisting change.It's not about trophy hunting,it's about balancing the number of bucks and does.It will work if you give it time.


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Old 12-29-2002, 07:24 PM
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Adirondack Moutains USA Member since sept/02
Posts: 1,639
Default RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....

Cajun I believe you are an ethical hunter, but can you say that the other thousands of hunters out there are the same way? All you need to do is read a paper and you can see there are dead deer in the woods left by hunters. I'm not saying that they are bad hunters, but sometimes excitment does get the better of a person especially the newer hunters with itchy fingers. They see a deer they know it is deffinatlly a buck ,but excitement makes them think they have a 4point instead of a 3point. Maybe it was cloudy that day, maybe the deer was standing next to a tree that made it look like it had an extra point, etc... Then again are we trying to judge a deer's age by the size of his rack? Most hunters know that you can't judge a deer's age by his rack. I know that we should let the little guys go. Instead of putting restrictions on everything maybe there should be better hunting coarses. I shot a deer this year, new for a fact it was a 4point, until I walked over and saw that 2 points had been broke off. Am I a Bad hunter because I didn't realize this was a 6 point? I don't think so. I figure the deer was ATLEAST 4 years old so did I take a young buck? Was my shot unethical? The deer in my area don't get big racks, not enough nutrients in the area. So if there were an antler restriction in my area I quess except for a few deer(very few) there wouldn't be any taken. Antler restrictions might work in someplaces, but it will not solve all the problems. I think that some people are more worried about getting a trophy instead of worrying about whats happening to hunting. The real reason people want antler restrictions is so that it will better there chances of a trophy in years to come. I'm not saying that anybodies reason for hunting is wrong, but why do we have to keep adding laws to the hunt. Like I've said before I don't hunt for a big rack I have nothing to prove I hunt for meat. I only shoot mature deer that are of good size. the smallest deer I've taken still weighed 150# after being gutted if I get a big rack then yahoo good for me. Here's another question for you if you see a 12point standing next to an 8point both are easy shoots which one are you going to take??? One more thing the 12point weighs 175, and the 8 point weighs 250+. Now lets pretend it's the year 2030 and there is a new antler restriction you can only shoot deer with more then 9points. What I'm getting at is when is enough going to be enough and are we shooting the deer or are we shooting its rack.
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Old 12-29-2002, 07:34 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Morrisdale PA USA
Posts: 346
Default RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....

i agree fullback im form PA also.. i still got one more year w/ a junior licensec but after that i hope i see soem buck.. but i do think it wil, help w/ big bucks.. but they didnt need to do that!

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Old 01-20-2003, 01:31 AM
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: natrona heights Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 157
Default RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....

I think there area lot of very good and valid arguemnets on PA.'s management process in this forum. I am a PA deer hunter and unfortunately I'm usually surrounded by hunters on the first day. In the past i heard guys say if it don't have horns i won't shoot it! well great. but when these same guys go back to camp and guzzle there fair share of beer they won't have any bragging stories to tell anyone. so I think like with everything else in PA. it will take time for alot of guys to realize that they are just sitting in the woods cold, wet,( and usually hung over ) and nothing to shoe for it. I agree with who ever it was who said that there is to much emphasis put on the racks, personally i would rather take a doe than a scronnie buck of two or three points. if anyone is interested in what my freinds and i think is the best vension recipe e-mail me at [email protected] I'll be glad to share mine with you and would appreciate it if you told me what you thought. good luck boys and GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-20-2003, 09:30 AM
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: moore oklahoma USA,right now in Korea
Posts: 335
Default RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....

i think if they would lower the number of bucks you can take hunters might start being more selective on the bucks they shoot.in oklahoma you can shoot three bucks.to many hunters shoot the first two bucks they before black powder and gun season starts now they want to be selective,lower the number and maybe they will hold out for agood buck and not all the spikes i seen dagged out of the public area early in the season .i got two does early then one eight point after black powder and one eleven point in late december.ive hunted this area for 7 years so i know to wait for the rutting season to see the bigger boys plusi got one more doe in early jan.
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Old 01-20-2003, 09:58 AM
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Murray KY USA
Posts: 16
Default RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....

I agree that point restrictions aren't the answer - the best answer to protect yearling bucks, where that is the goal, is to only allow the harvest of bucks whose antlers extend beyond their ears. This will protect virtually all yearling bucks. Many of the bigger yearlings are 7 or 8 pointers & these are the very bucks you want to "graduate" to next years class, yet point restrictions don't protect them.

You will always have the slob hunters who will shoot first, hoping the deer is big enough, then leave the deer laying after they see that it is too small. Don't expect this kind of person to take responsiblity for their actions. If a hunter can't be certain of his or her target, they shouldn't take the shot!

The bottom line is if you want to improve the age class of bucks, the best antler restrictions is width of the rack, not point restriction. If you want a more balanced buck to doe ratio, a liberal doe harvest along with allowing the harvest of only one buck per year is the way to do that.

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Old 01-20-2003, 10:35 AM
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Location: Indiana PA USA
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Default RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....

PEOPLE, the PGC isn't trying to make Pennsylvania a "big buck state" like Iowa, Illinois, Texas, or Kansas. They are simply using big racks to get there plans through.

Okay, lets do this. You have 100 deer and with Pennsylvanias buck to doe ratio, we have probablly 80 doe and 20 bucks. Now, on an average season, 40 does are taken and 10 bucks. That takes you down to 40 doe and 10 bucks. A buck to doe ratio of 4 doe for each buck after seaon (not nearly as bad as what actually occurs in Pennsylvania, but this is just a demonstration). Now, they reproduce and we are back to 100 deer. Same buck to doe ration, 80 does and 20 bucks. Now, this season we have antler restrictions. We will say that 50% of the bucks are not legal so the PGC ups the doe tags. This years harvest is 55 does and 5 bucks. That takes us down to 45 does and 15 bucks (a buck to doe ratio of 3 doe to each buck). Another year of reproduction and we are up to a total of 90 deer. Of these 90 deer, 60 are doe and 30 are bucks. Now, 35 does are killed and 10 bucks are killed. That puts the total to 25 does and 20 bucks. That is a buck to doe ratio of 1.5 doe for each buck. Sure, there are less deer (over the grand scale in Pa, its not going to be very noticeable), but, that is more nutrients and food for each deer. That means healthier, older, and in the long run, larger racked deer.

Also, this statement of "hunters are leaving deer lay in the woods" is getting WAY blown out of proportion. Think about it. A guy goes in the woods and see 20 other hunters. Of these 20, 1 was a slob hunter. Now, this guy goes home and talks to his buddies, is he going to talk about how he saw 19 ethical hunters, or is he just going to mention that one bad seed? If we only looked at the bad seeds in Pennsylvania, we would be looking at a small small small portion of the hunters. Ethical hunters don't "shock" other hunters as much so they don't really every talk about "the ethical hunter who passed up a sub-legal buck" All they ever talk about is the bad seed.

I saw 1 deer laying dead this year. That is it. I hunted over 1,000 acres of land that is privately owned but open to all hunters and out of those 1,000 acres, I found one dead buck laying in the woods.

Also, think about the safety that is now in the woods. This year I wasn't constantly thinking about "that guy in the woods" who sees a deer and just starts shooting like a mad man. 90% of the guys in Pa were following the rules and this meant that they must identify their target instead of just blasting shots off.

Give it time. These plans will work. I am willing to see a few less doe each season to see a couple more bucks. Pennsylvania has potential to be a great state for hunting. We have lots of good farmlands and thick woods. We have a large deer herd to work with, but, in order to get our herd right, we have to take more does out and pass on smaller bucks. I constantly here people whinning about "Pennsylvania has no big bucks", but yet when it comes to passing up that little 6 pointer, the thought never crosses their mind, they just shoot it. Anyone see a contradiction here?

My family, best friend, and I have been harvesting as many doe as we can each year and passing on smaller bucks for several years and it is showing. We have alot of potential around my hunting grounds. Huge fields of corn/alfalfa/clover. The woods are full of oaks that produce lots of acorns. There is really thick cover, a pond that is on the edge of woods where thick bedding is (a place were deer are comfortable enough to go get a drink), ect.... We have been letting the small bucks pass. I see more big bucks in Pennsylvania than some people see in Texas, Kansas, Iown, Illinois, Alberta, ect.. each year. This year I saw lots of bucks, only a few real brutes while hunting (The Ghost Buck- an absolute monster 11 point that would score in the 150" range), and a 10 point that would score in the mid 130" range. While spotting before archery season I would see 4 8 points in a field every night, and they all would have went 130" or up. The biggest probablly in the 160" range.

The moral of the story is......... SHOOT MORE DOE AND LET THE LITTLE BUCKS PASS!!!

P.S. How come we have meat hunters out there that say they don't care about antlers, but yet, when a group of 5 mature doe and 1 spike comes out, the meat hunter will shoot the smaller bodied spike? Thats alittle more contradiction.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet

Check out my hunting PICS here http://community.webshots.com/user/buckmagnet
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Old 01-22-2003, 03:27 PM
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Default RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....


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Old 01-22-2003, 06:04 PM
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
Default RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....

BM , I dont know any meat hunter who would shoot a spike over a nice doe! At least your right on about one thing , for the PGC it's not about growing trophy deer , it's about drastically reducing the herd by forcing hunters to shoot does instead of young bucks.

BBB , Why the bump?

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