RE: Elitist attitude
 

No it doesn't. I would rather see them have success right away then pick up a Trad bow starting out and wounding or missing animals, the point I'm trying to make is I don't want a kid to get a bad taste in there mouth trying it the (hard way) right away. After they get some good valued expierence they can then make the switch if they feel there ready. When I started out shooting bow I was 3 years old, my dad had little recurves laying around every where. My family has been shooting Traditional for years. When I was old enough to legally hunt (12 years old in Mn) he then told me your getting a compound 1st for the exact reasons I had just mentioned. I hunted with my compound for 8 years and loved it. I didn't have all the gadgets on my compound that allot of the folks did years ago and do now today. They were out there but It didn't impress me any. I shot with fingers, my bow was just under 65% let off. I know I could of started hunting with the recurve right away and probably have good success but dad wanted to make sure I was good and ready when I made the switch on my own when I turned 20. Its the best thing I ever did, I love hunting with my recurve. I know its made me a much better bow hunter then I previously was shooting compound.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Schultzy then its a very simple step to say "use the crossbow" using the same reasons you just gave - easier to master, more accurate, intro youngsters to archery at younger ages, less wounded deer .....

expand on that, because I think Lanse couche coucheand others are missing what we're saying

I shot compounds for 12-13 years or so. I, like you, hunted all my life. Taking a recurve into the woods and hunting with it and shooting deer with it ? VAST difference, like I was a newbie in the woods again.

And its not just the hunting that changes, its all encompassing when you shoot trad it seems. Compounds don't have "it" and crossbows don't have "it" - maybe some traditional archers don't have it, but because of the difficulty in the weapons its weeds out a lot of wanna be, taking the easy route to extra weeks afield kinda of guys that crossbows and compounds lure in.

again I'm at a crossroads. I wish archery was only traditional bows, what it originally was. doing that would weaken bowhunting, and hutning in general, and because there are no negative impacts to having compounds and crossbows in legal archery season, it almost outweighs the conflict of equipment

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Whoever sent me the private email (that I just found in my junk mail box) thanks, you are areal class act. However, I have seen the records that prove that my parents were in fact married when i was born.[8D]

The ultimate irony is that this thread has probably done more topromote and support the use of crossbowsduring archery season than anythread thatthat I have seen on here. Well done.

And they don'tcarry thecamaraderie measurement meters at Gander Mountain. So, now its off to check out Dicks Sporting Goods.:D

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Lanse couche couchewasn't me, probably some anti-crossbow pro-compund zealot :D

I dunno .... I htink someday we'll all have to make decisions on equipment in archery season and when that days comes, I'd hope each of you and myself included know EXACTLY what we believe and can support it with facts and reasoning rather than just narrow, selfish, self based opinions

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Silly me, I always thought of archery as a hobby, not a religion.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Iam not anti any bow so iam clear.......You know !!!.It wouldnt hurt my feelings one bit if someone woke up one morrning and changed the Archery law to Longbow/Recurve only in all states....granted that if you couldnt use that type(injury/or age requierment)crossbow would be allowed.....At least I have all 5 types of bow....And like them all.....And can still shoot them all weather it behunting or target.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Wasn't I either! Can't you tell who sent it?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I have to disagree. To me, the ultimate irony is someone whohas not, does not, and has no plans to hunt using archery equipmentseems to think they are anexpert on the subject. :D 'Course I could call myself a rocket scientist, but as soon as I tried to act like I knew what I was talking about the obvious would become clear.[8D]

I still get a giggle out of that one.......

Just for the folks reading, I didn't send the mail, don't know who did, or anything about it--I don't have any problems saying what I need to say on the board.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Archery is a hobby to crossbow and compound shooters for the most part with few exceptions. Its their way in to early hunting seasons without the dicipline and difficulty it takes to master trad archery.


Traditional archery though, its a year round love, its much, much more than a hobby with few exceptions.


So if you think its a hobby, you're missing it, you don't get it

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Dang, it sure is getting deep on here tonight.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I guess I am. I do not worship the bow. Its a hobby, you really need to get a life. I guess I dont get it. Im headed out this weekend with a bow I made for a man to test it out on hogs with arrows I made from ceder. I dont see that commitment from you. And yes, its still a hobby, nothing more.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Best post on this thread.:D

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Two things I do all year..Work....Archery......Other then that I have a few Hobby's....
1st is my Harleys...
2nd is my Streetrod...
3rd is Boating...
4th is Fishing...

My Wife and Children are a givin....

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"Archery is a hobby to crossbow and compound shooters for the most part with few exceptions. Its their way in to early hunting seasons without the dicipline and difficulty it takes to master trad archery."

Well...for ME it is also a carreer:)

However, that blanket statement is actually incorrect. I know plenty of compound and crossbow archers that shoot more andhave more enthusiasm than some of the trad guys I know. It isstill a "hobby" to most everyone. It only turns into an "obsession" whenit overshadows everthing else...

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Wyvern Crossbow I said with a few exceptions, but I'll stick with that blanket statement. MOST compound and crossbow shooters haven't shot since the end of archery season. They don't shoot much year round, its only a few weeks before archery season do they even think about it. Because crossbows and compounds are so accurate and easy to shoot, its not neccessary to do it 365 a year. Heck look no further than archery shops - when do they get most of their business ? August/September I'd wager, thats when my local shop goes to 6 days a week, 7-6 or hours likethat.

What do you know that I'm doing this weekend burniegoeasily? Please detail what I'm doing, I'm curious how you can know.

What do you know about my life ?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Interesting. You make a blanket statement about MOST compounders and crossbowers but if someone hints about your life all of a sudden it is "what do you know". What do YOU know about MOSTcompounder's and crossbower's lives? Are you involved in MOST compounder's and crossbower's lives? There is a whole lot of 3D, spots, etc. going on right now but I am guessing that MOST compounders are waiting for two weeks before the season starts :eek:. I put myself in with MOST compounders and I would bet in the past week I shot more arrows with my compounds than you have with your trad bow and I don't even do compettitive shooting. Ooops, what do I know about your life LOL :eek:?

Why is it OK for you to make blanket statements about MOST compounder's and crossbower's but not OK for anyone to make blanket statements about you?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Do not know, but I do know you do not make your bows or arrows. You buy them and your shafts. Words from your mouth. I was justpointing out how your hypocricy can be turned on you. I just finished a 58lb long bow R/D for a man as well as 6 ceder shafts I cut, turned, and ground the feathers for. I was pointing out that what I was doing would fall more in lines with being elitist than what you do, but I dont see it that way. Im no elitist, even though my hobby provides me with pleasure an income. Still a hobby, period. Your vision of grandure has really diluted you.


One last thing, why have a special season for bow hunters??? Your superior powers and hunting prowess should afford you better hunting than those loser crossbow and compound shooter, as well as the unthinkable gun hunters. It boils down to your notion of being better than all because you do things your way and believe that everyone, other than yourself, are lazy slugs that do not deserve to enter the woods until the all mighty Duane has cleared.


Talk about delusional.:eek:

RE: Elitist attitude
 

You don't know the answer to that one already after 34 pages of this? [:-]
It's because my / our /youropinions are wrong, and his are right. It doesn't matter what we think or know or believe, we're just wrong.
It's fine for him to apply his views to the 3 million or so bowhunters/ archers in this country, he is our voice.
I guess we all just need to accept that.

I know I have. :eek:

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Why can't we just all get along?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

fair enough - tell me how many compounders are there in your states archery season.

then tell me how many attend 3D shoots

theres your answer - I mean, what % of bowhunters go to these 3D shoots.

Archery shops open longer hours, hire additional help, stock shelves etc all in July/August because thats when most bowhunters get their groove back on. Most bowhunters are compounders.


generalize trad hunters, blanket us, go for it. As for me ? I shot almost every day the past few weeks, 15-20 arrows, all stump shooting in the woods. I don't do long shooting sessions anymore, focusing more on quality, one shot shooting.

I do not make my bow, I do make up my own arrows (I don't make my own shafts). Is that what you define committment as ? If so, then true bowhunters are an extreme minority (self bowyers). You could make a semi-argument there, I'll admit

thats a confusing statement. Crossbows and compounds ARE in my states archery season. "better hunting" how do you define that ? Kill stats ? Accuracy ?

BTW trad hunting DOES make you a better hunter. Why ? Because its so much more difficult, you HAVE to be a better hunter.

burniegoeasilyits common knowledge you've got a beef with me anyways, half your responses to me is in a bitter nature, or I feel it is anyway


Matt / PA again fair enough, but answer me why percentage wise so few compounders and crossbowers shoot throughout the year ? We can know they don't , looking at archery sales, the way archery shops handle their "seasons", a look at 3D participations etc.

Right ?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

there are 2 views as I see it - 2 views that really hold a good solid reasoning

#1 - allow it all
#2 - restrict the technology BACK to a primitive season


#1 is pretty much what we have, and its not a negative to archery season, never has been anyway. Because of that, how can we, as hunters, possibly want to cut into our own ranks ? There are strength in numbers no doubt.

#2 only has merit if/when we have too many bowhunters or what hunting is, is lost


Its so frickin funny to see a guy with a tricked out, 345 fps, 80 yard accurate Bowtech with parallel limbs and cams the size of a dinner plate, triggered release, 80% letoff saying he doesn't want a crossbow to interfere with his archery season. Thats just assinign, the guy is regurgetating P&Y rhetoric and little else.


I don't know where to fall really, because I DO think we're losing what hunting is, that everything "easy" from compounds to ATV's to high fences etc, thats all a part of losing what hunting IS. I frequent Tradgang a lot, there is where you'll find a much close respect for what archery, bowhunting and the hunt is all about. I really believe that.

:)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

No, you tell me. YOU are the one making the claim that MOST don't shoot in the off season. YOU back up YOUR claim. What are you basing this claim that MOST don't shoot in the off season on?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Ill admit to such. i just dont understand your constant need to belittle and talk down to everyone.
Even those who agree with you. I usually dont even respond. I guess ive been in a grumpy mood this last week.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Id wager the opposite. I bet most compound shooter shoot all year. I know very little right now, but when I lived in the city, every compound shooter I knew had a target in the back yard and shot at least 3 times a week. I too would like to see the proof. The burden of Proof would be on you Duane.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

:D:D:D

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I'll respond as secretary of the MS Bowhunters Association, I keep up with stats like this..... We have 50,000 bowhunters in this state... About 150 show up to the state championship shoot. I would guess on any given weekend you may have 1,000 shooters statewide at a 3-D shoot...

Also, after serving 2 years in this position I've learned one thing...90% of bowhunters are only in it for the extra time in the field.. If guns were legal tomorrow during bow season you would loose 90% of your bowhunters over night.

We fight xbows being allowed into archery b/c we feel that it sets a dangerous precedent for other weapons to be introduced. In a state like MSwhere the dept. of gameandfish is telling us we can't kill enough deer, its a very real possibility of having a "pick your weapon" format in order to control the deer herd. We've been told my the legistlature, its not if that will happen, its when.

Look at what was once primitive weapons season... Started with loose powder and no scope... Then they allowed a red dot style scope....then full scopes.....The powder pellets.....Then inlines...now the handi rifles.... The entire spirit of primitive weapons season was lost in little over a decade... I have no doubt that we will see vast changes in our season structure over the next couple of decades.. And it will not be for the benefit of the bowhunter.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I have to dissagree with your estimates. I got the same basic line from the "bowhunter groups" in my area and they are so against crossbows for no good reason that it is written intotheir bylaws. Anti crosbow is brainwashed into every new archery they can get their hands on. It is mostly missinformation and lies. I teach bowhunter ed and the vast majority are getting into it for the "challenge", lengthening the season is part of it, but they would not use a gun over a bow. They are bored with the ease of hunting wiht a gun. What may be happening in your area is one thing, but not everywhere. Is "primitive" getting watered down by tech? Yes, I would like to see a true primitive season, but there is not enough serious interest and as we have seen on this thread, what is primitive to one archer is not to another and the argument on standards alone would be a nightmare, not to mention the additional money the states would need to police that season (could you picture a CO actually having to crawl thru the woods just to see if the archer he came across had wood and not carbon arrows??). Also, if the deer are that plentifull in your area then there should be lots of oppertunity to hunt however you want and not have to worry about crossbows (just like you dont worry about compounds...)

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

DC is right on the money--at least from what I know(and he's in a different part of MS). I used to work in a local archery shop, now I own/operate the only local archery shop. We used to have gobs of local tournaments, now there's onlyone within 90 mins of me, and it only has4-6 shoots a summer.Most shut down due to lack of participation;in one case the land sold to a timber company.

I know we have gobs of bowhunters in the area--but turnout at shoots is very low, and sales for archery equipment is next to nothing until September (season opens in Oct.). Look at Wal-Mart--they are in it for the money, period--if archery equipment made money year-round, the equipment would be out year round. Good luck trying to findanything archery at your local Wal-Martright now. No doubt whatsoever the vast majority are just looking to extend the season, and most would happily gun hunt.

MS has an exceptional deer population--the problem, like most anywhere else I've heard of, is finding a place to hunt. Not everyone can afford to buy up 50-100+ acres (if you can even find land for sale), not everyone can afford to pay for a lease, and you have to wait for years and/or know the right people to get into a lot of clubs. Pulblic land can be a nightmare, but I've found out about a few spots that, if you don't mind a lot of travelling and a lot of walking, maybe you won't be set up within 50 yds of someone else.

Just like the drive behind the technology, bigmoney controls other aspects of hunting--and hurts it for most of us.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Gotta wonder how much location is affecting everyones perspective on crossbows. MS seems to have an issue that we dont up in our neck of the woods.
Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I was under the impression that bag limits and hunting seasons are the way they are to benefit the animal not one type of hunter.

You can't kill enough deer yet you fight to limit other hunters' ability to hunt them. I guess I don't see the logic in that. It certainly is not for the benefit of hunting.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I don't go to tournaments or any organized shoots but I practice constantly and am always trying to learn how to be better at maintaining and using my gear. I buy just about everything online because the "archery shop" here is run by thieves. Also the selection online is unlimited. Just look at the "buying feathers" thread in this forum. I am not saying that there aren't bowhunters that are in it just to extend their season but it seems feasible to me that there are a great many like me, and many others in this forum and the bowhunting forum, that practice quite a bit and buy a lot of archery equipment but never go to tournaments and go to real archery shops (the only real one is 60 miles form me) very infrequently. I bought my last 2 bows online (used from a couple of guys). Perhaps the availability of online merchandise has hurt local shops more than anything.

I don't know MS but I wonder if limiting hunting opportunities for other huntersis the right solution for hunting as a sport in MS(not that that is what you are advocating)or anywhere else. I don't think that is the way to go here in MD. As you stated, ifa personis willing to put forth the effort then good opportunities can be found and I think that is where efforts should be directed, not at limiting hunting opportunities for other hunters.

As was pointed out earlier, if we keep arguing and limiting opportunities amongst ourselves the DNR depts will deal with the "too many deer" in a way that none of us may like.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I know a lot of stuff is bought on-line. Shoot, 99% of my business is done on-line.

However, I know what I'm talking about here--it doesn't take a genious to figure it out. I used to work in construction--I was around a lot of different people. September rolls around, people start talking about "dusting the bow off" and getting ready. I live out in the country as well--again, around September, I'll start seeing the occassional 3-D target or bag target start appearing in a yard here or there. When Wal-Mart does put out their archery gear, if they put it out a little early it just sits there for the most part, then for 2-3 weeks it dissapears, then what's left gets put on clearance. Again, it doesn't take a genious to figure it out.

Back when we had a lot of local shoots, I'd try to round up folks I knew bowhunted to give it a try. Most wouldn't go--their bow was already "put up" and wouldn't be out again until next season.

Not trying to imply everywhere is the same as here, but my guess is there isn't a lot of difference--hunters are hunters, people are people. I know how it is in my area anyway.

What's the deal with this "limiting opportunities for other hunters"? Who said nobody should be allowed to hunt with a crossbow? My personal feelings are there are separate seasons for different weapons. I haven't heard anyone protesting because they can't use a 30-'06 in muzzleloader season because--is that not limiting opportunities?

I see it like this. I have a bad ankle--I'm stuck in a brace for the rest of my life. Due to this, I'm limited on how far I can walk, and the terrain I can walk on. Do you think that I should be able to take an ATV into places that normally allows foot traffic only? If not, why not? Wouldn't that be limiting my opportunities?

How about hunts I can't afford--should I get gov't help or a cheaper tag so my opportunities aren't limited? I'd really love to go to Hawaii and hunt wild goats, but I can't afford the air fare (and ATV rental when I get there). Should I be offered help?


Life ain't fair--some folks won't be able to hunt Bighorn sheep, some folks won't be able to hunt elk, some folks won't be able to hunt with a bow. I hate it for anyone who can't enjoy the sport, but I don't think the sport should be changed to accomodate them, any more than I think I should be allowed to use an ATV in elk country or have the gov't pay for a hunt in HI I can't afford.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

You can use an xbow in the 2.5 months of firearm season now! So noone is limiting other hunters... Also, the vast majority of deer herd management takes place during the firearms season, so the only logical place to increase the harvest would take place in that season.....


Chad,

GREAT POST!!! Its unbelievable how everyone thinks they are entitled to something these days!!!

We have 4 full months of deer hunting in MS. 1.5 bow only, 2.5 firearms... If you can't get your "opportunity" to hunt in that framework, YOU are the problem!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

In my state they make allowances for disabled hunters. So, if you are disabled by that bad ankle, then we try to expand your opportunities, not limit them and we would even allow you to hunt from your vehicle. Might be a bit tough with a longbow but that would be your self imposed limitiation as we allow you to use a gun.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/accessforall/accesshunt.html

No life isn't fair but I would hate to tell the disabled Veteran from the war in Iraq that hey, life aint fair and I really hate that you can't enjoy what you used to do before losing that leg in the service of your country, but, the sport shouldn't be changed to accomodate anyone.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I am guessing you don't see the irony in that statement. This whole thread is about some who feel they are entitled to a season just for their weapon and no others.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Bingo! Nobody has said you can't hunt with a crossbow--but you have to use it in the appropriate season. The huge majority that won't hunt in archery season because crossbows aren't allowed is due only to self imposed limitations--period.

Do you feel the same about telling that Vet that can't use a bow or a crossbow that he can't use a rifle during bow season? Where do you draw the line, and why?

I've said before I don't have a problem making some exceptions for the elderly and those with disabilities--but if it comes down to all or none, I'd have to vote none. Let the camel get his nose in the tent, sooner or later you're going to have to deal with the whole camel in there.

Saying because I don't believe a crossbow is a bow, and because I don't think they should be allowed in the archery-only season, that would be limiting opportunities is bull for the most part. Most have the choice of learning to shoot a bow or waiting for gun season. I DO have limitations. Not that it matters, but I ruined my ankle at Ft. Gordon GA while serving in the Army. I don't expect any special treatment or favors.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Quite a few pages back I answered this question for Big Duane. I would not be opposed to one long hunting season for all weapons. Of course bag limits would have to be adjusted and I am sure some other things would have to be worked out but I don't see a problem with that type of hunting season. It is my belief that this would alleviate some, maybe most,of the crowding on public lands that you speak of.

Everyone makes some good points and these discussions are good in that, hopefully, they spur thought. I don't claim to have all, or any, of the answers, but, with hunter numbers declining everywhere, I am more worried about hunting in general than whether or not I have a season all to myself.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Or the logical answer could be to increase that season by , lets say, two weeks. But then that may cut into thearchery season ;).

RE: Elitist attitude
 

No....We are saying leave the framework alone..... We don't want to lose the tradition of the bow only season.... The muzzleloader guys have lost their tradition, we dont want the same fate....

And so you northern guys understand...... Bow season isn't that great here to begin with! Gun season opens a full 3 weeks before the rut and it spands all phases of the rut..... We already have the WORST time to be in the woods to begin with.... You don't see us petitioning to allow a bow only rut, etc..... We accept that our "special" season was put into place to allow hunters more time afield and instead of taking other group's season, they added some time on the front end.... Now, the other groups want that time as well!