RE: Elitist attitude
 

"Honestly I was suprised at the attitudes displayed--the staunch defense of crossbows as being "just another bow",but especiallythe methods used to "defend" them. I expected better from this bunch. "

You know...you are actually right...we (I) are better than this cat fighting.

Frustration goes along way to dragging down a discussion. I have walked away from this 3 times now and came back just out of morbid curiosity. I do have a hard time reading some of the comments that are based only on opinion and no facts. Sorry if I got nasty...this is definitly one of my "hot buttons"

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I expected more from this "elite" group as well.;)

jk Nobody blow a head gasket.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I look at bow hunting as just that bow hunting....Sure I get a bigger rush when Iam out with my trad bow then I do with a compound but I also get a rush when I go out with my crossbow more so then with the compound.....
I will do 95% of my still/stalking this yr with my trad gear then any other gear,but if I do groundblind hunting it will be crossbow(durring rifle season)and any treestand hunting will be with my compound..I will utilize all my bows for hunting.
I must be one ofthe Elite few that dont have a problem with what type of bow you use durring Archey season...Due to the fact I cant argue that one way of bow hunting is better then the othe way....
Iam also not blind to the fact that Trad bow hunting is harder then the rest ether and takes alot more time to become proficant(spl)with it...
Iam also not blind to the fact that there are alot of compound shooters that think because they shoot 5 arrows the day before bow season makes them good at bowhunting.scarry.
Iam also not blind to the fact that hunting with a crossbow is easy,its not.they are too heavy to stalk with,too bulky to sit in a tree stand with for along amount of timeand you donthave alot of shooting room because of wide limbs....
Iam also not blind to the fact that some people will never except compound or crossbows as a bow......
I feel the way I feel because I accept all types of bow hunting and dont see any reason to feel any differant....And no body will change that...
I will allways be on the bowhunters side with what ever type of bow they use.....
I will never critisize a person ether for what type of bow theychose toshoot or brand of bow they shoot with......

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Do I feel a group hug coming on???

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I don't know anyone who will argue a .22 hornet isn't a gun though, or that a snare isn't a trap. Do you ?

NEW61375interesting stats for sure. IF they go up - what will happen in your opinon ?

bigcountryfor once you're seeing my bare soul - its an internal issue that I can see both sides on, and don't know which to really settle myself on


NEW61375 I think there can be a really good argument put forth that hunting itsself gets lost when technology is introduced. What hunting IS .... its degraded, eroded, bastardized, chiseled away at etc with technology and all that comes with it.

I honestly DO believe that.

Lanse couche coucheI don't get what the above means. I can't imagine not deer hunting.

Schultzywhat about all the public land hunters ? Thats when the competition for hunting seasons reallt hits the fan

$1000 says they were NOT trad hunters

What did you expect?

I can't knock crossbows LBR because its a fact they ARE bows (thus the name) they are steeped in archery history, they have limbs and a string that deliver an arrow, they can't shoot any further than a compound, they can't shoot as high a score on a 3D range, they're cumbersome and not as well suited for hunting as some might think ......

Question LBR - lets say 20,000 crossbow kills in Arkansas had NOT been using crossbows but compounds. How many kills do you think it WOULD have been ? 18,000 ? 17,000 ?

Now, put a recurve in the hands of those hunters, maybe 2,000 kills ?

Compounds are the CHOICE of bowhunters in states that allow compounds. For now anyway. There is a reason - they're all the weapon and more, they're easy, fast, quiet, light, easy to reload, triggered, sighted, .... they're designed to SHOOT


I can't knock one without knocking the other. I don't see how its possible for anyone to do it to be honest.


Allow it all, or ban the technology back. Which to believe is the issue for me





Lanse couche coucheand right there shows you've never hunted with a bow and especially not traditional archery. There is SO MUCH more to than getting within g30 yards. So much more. The difficulty IS the hunting, the kill has less and less to do with it the more you get into the hunt itsself.

Thats what I was saying, technology breeds that belief Lanse couche coucheand its bad for Hunting IMO

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Yes Wyvern it is my standard and only my standard!! Not once did I say everyone should do it the way I hunt, never did I say that! There are so many people out there that would be wounding animals right and left shooting these Traditional bows, its not for everyone. Its a good thing we have compounds out there, for some there allot simpler to learn and master and some people just plain and simple love the gadgets they have. I thought I read that you own a archery shop. Question for ya. Whats the choice of bow that you would recommend to a young kid 13 years old getting into bow hunting for the 1st time?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Feelings,nothing more then Feelings.....as the song goes....

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Duane,

My statement about rifles and traps was to make a point about how legal status and attitudes toward something can change just by crossing a border. Have states really traditionally not permitted crossbows because they aren't recognized as bows. Or, has it been more of an issue of simply not permitting them because they were viewed as providing some sort of unfair advantage compared to other bows? And, as i said before, that is really a moot point anyway, since more and more states are permitting crossbows. Laws, like hunting technology and peoples attitudes toward it, do change. You don't have to like it, but when you start preaching against it, you do come across like a soapbox preacher in the French Quarter during Mardi Gras.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Im not trying to stir the pot further, but why does all this bother you so much? Who cares what others are using, or even what they consider it. What is the big deal. It appears to be all about arogants or about someone takeing your deer from you with an easier weapon to use. Im asking this not to offend or to stir the pot further, but I dont understand why some are so bent on down playing other forms of hunting. Ive used trad gear since i was 8. Im the only one I know that bow hunts. I take my buddies out to rifle hunt while I bow hunt. I dont see the problem. Like I said, im not trying to offend, just trying to understand.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I would like to offer a different perspective on hunting and whether technology is hurting it. Most of my hunting is done without a weapon, without technology (well I use my GPS but I am very proficient with map and compasss and could use that too). It is covering ground, reading sign and learning what they (deer, fox, etc.)are doing, when they do it and son on. The only time technology comes in is when I am going to try and kill something. Does it help. Some, but not nearly as much as the actual "hunting" helps my hunting.

Maybe the reliance on technology could be bad but unless you get out there and "hunt" no technology will automatically put animals in front of you.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I know your not trying to stir the pot Burnie. We all have our beliefs. I am not in no way saying the way I hunt is the only way! That would be sad if i were to say that.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Guys, I hate to have to say this again. But, if technology is such a bad thing and improvements in technology are eroding the sport, then you really should go back to the original routine of using a spear or the most primitive form of bow you can make that will still be effective, or only do stalk hunting rather than using a blind, etc.. If you look hard enough, there is always gonna be somebody out there who can out-primative you. But then again, I'm guessing that even you primitive hunters ultimately end up using far more toys than i do when i go out with a shotgun.

And Bruce, congrats on actually knowing what technology entails. I just know that when i finally get in a position to make a shot I want the most efficient tool that the law allows in that condition. Otherwise, the risk is there that you are gonna make some shed hunter realy happy in the spring.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I was just asking because you did make it clear why P & Y was important to you, which was a legit reason that I will agree with. I just thought there might be another way of looking at this that i have yet to see.;)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Not by a long shot. I go out in my underwear (loin cloth is not big enough to cover all of me;)) and get in a stare down with a buck. I will use my vulcan mind meld to make him kill himself by turning himself inside out. I started doing that instead of just killing them because it saves time by not haveing to gutting them. Oh yea, that is after I make them walk next to my truck to do this. I got sick of dragging them out of the woods. Im still perfecting my skills and need to practice a little more so I can actually have them fall apart into steak size bits.:D

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Oh I see, well then I doubt a hunting forum would interest you much unless your here to learn trad archery. Well, good talking to you.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Yeah, the loincloth should be a definite requirement. What could be more challenging than to try to draw an accurate bead on a deer with that trusty recurve while your nads are freezing. Come on guys, let's get really primitive and back to our roots.

Well, BC, the last time i checked, bows are used to kill other stuff besides deer, so i decided it is worth checking out. And just because I am not a fanatic about something doesn't mean that I don't want to talk about it. And the pleasure has been all mine.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

the # 1 reason for allowing crossbows


when you stand for anything you come across as such. I'm embraced it :D

brucelanthiertrue to a point, however technology allows you things traditional equipment would not I think. Longer shots, more power, more everything really - and when you have (like a crossbow) a weapons you can buy at wal-mart on Friday evening and hunt Sat morning with it ... I think a LOT is lost there, don't you ?


Lanse couche couche ahhh you're ignoring me, thats okay. its hard to answer tough questions ;)

Bowhunting isn't about spears. Bowhunting is about bows and arrows, the flight of the arrow, the sharpening of a head, the comraderie involved, the hunting, its all encompassing.

You've not done it, you don't get it, simple enough

you've just lost a large part of what bowhunting is suppose to be

RE: Elitist attitude
 

doesn't really matter to you, because as you say it, your not interested in trad archery anyway.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

To me Burnie a bow should be drawn, not locked into place. Thats my only complaint with a crossbow. Where's it going to end if we keep allowing things, gadgets, draw locks, etc? I wanna preserve the bow hunting heratige of what little is left. It kinda scares me. Is that so bad of me? Maybe it is, and if it is then I'm guilty as heck!;)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Read again, I didn't say that I'm not interested in it, just that I dont want to hunt that way. Try to maintain focus here.

And Duane, I'm not ignoring you, it is just getting hard to follow massive cut and paste posts. And you are right, I don't get it when one style claims to have cornered the market on comaraderie or anything else related to the intangibles of hunting.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

They have been rising a little each season since 2005, the past two seasons have averaged very close numbers. I would not be surprised to see it continue to rise slightly and that would not effect my opinion. Like I said combined bow & xbow = 24,000(small percentage)and firearms (including bp) is near 200,000 so I would like to see both bow and xbow numbers rise. Lord knows the deer are there to kill.

I agree to a point that as a hunting community wecan degrade or chisel away at what the hunting heritage/tradition is. Everyone wants the next best thing, the great new product, easier, faster, "guaranteed", stronger, better. Between marketing and technology I would agree the"traditional" hunting heritageis taking a hit. Now that doesn't mean that there is not good being brought to the table as well but hunting is big business/$$$$ and that usually does tarnish it somewhat in my opinion.

It is up to individuals to do their best to hang on to the things that IMO are reallyimportant to hunting like opening day traditions, spending time with the family/friends, comradery, peace & quiet, a slower pace, fresh air, a camp fire, hunting tales, kids hunting, helping one another, hunters feasts, the emotions you feel in the woods like that feeling when you glance up from a tough blood trail and see your downed trophy just ahead orthe anticipation that comes with the first glimmer of light on any morning in the woods, and I'm sure there are 1,000,000 other things most on this site could add. Those are things that matter to me andthose are the things I want my kids(and others I introduce to hunting)to know are the mostimportantaspects ofhunting and being a hunter not what bow or xbow or gun or stand or binocs or grunt call or any other material item you hunt with, but hey that's just me.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

NEW,

I agree. Enjoying oneself and the company of others, and passing ones chosen tradition(s) along is what it is all about. And no one style has cornered the market on stuff like that. Those who think otherwise are the ones that have a lot to learn.

I'm off to happy hour, so I will leave it to you fellas. On the way there, though, I am gonna stop off at Gander Mountain and see if they have a camaraderie meter in stock, so i can measure how much more fun than me those other lucky dogs are having. [8D]

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Again, you are making it up as you go. I said it's a bow-plus, and I never stated it as anything more than an opinion--just like it's your opinion that a crossbow is just another type of bow.

What "facts"? Seems I'm the one that stated my case based on the differences. Again, if you can't confront my points based on what I actually said, maybe you need to re-evaluate your stance--or at least own up to what I said earlier--you like them, you want to hunt with them in the archery-only season, therefore you consider them to be archery equipment. I can respect an honest answer and opinion. I don't have any respect for putting words in my mouth.

So? You haven't hunted with a bow or crossbow, but your opinions are supposed to hold water, while mine--based on near 20 years experience--don't?:eek: You ignore the fact I never said anything negative about hunting with a crossbow, I haven't protested hunting with a crossbow, I simply stated that in my opinion they don't belong in the archery-only season and gave the reasons for that opinion. I don't see why you or anyone else feels the need to make things up just because you don't agree with that opinion, especially when it obviously means nothing to you either way. Just like to argue?

Where have I said anything concerning the physics of a crossbow, one way or the other? How would you know who is wrong and who is right even if I had?

Another thinly veiled and false accusation. I never said or implied the above. They are simply different weapons, just like a rifle and a shotgun and a bow are different. Different seasons for different weapons.

Coming from someone who admits they don't, have not, and has no future interest inhunting with a bow. I've got near 20 yearsexperience, but according to you my opinions are baseless because I haven't hunted with a crossbow. You haven't hunted with a bow or a crossbow, but somehow your opinions on themare supposed to mean more than mine? :D

FYI, for the type hunting I do, often traditional gear is easier to me. I don't like to tinker with nuts and bolts and screws, and I usually hunt in thick woods where shot distance is limited regardless of what weapon you are using. I can speak from experience--I don't have to make it up as I go along.

Funny how every point I make gets dodged or twisted. If I'm so wrong in my opinion it should be easy to expose--right?

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

So, are you trying to protect bow hunting heratige, or bow hunting rights? I dont think the traditional heratige is in any way threatened. Ive seen it grow quit a bit since the advent of the high tech compounds. The high tech stuff gets people started, then when they have accomplished it, they move on to a bigger challenge. Id wagger many on this forum, right now got their start with compounds. Trad gear did take a big hit in the 80s on up to the 90s, but i think its making a come back. The old is the new, new.:D But I under stand the idea of trying to insure the tradition continues. As for crossbows, im not sure what to call them, but it does not bother me that they are being used. ;)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"thought I read that you own a archery shop. Question for ya. Whats the choice of bow that you would recommend to a young kid 13 years old getting into bow hunting for the 1st time?"

What does that kid want to shoot??? If he wants a compound, then I would get him into a compound, if he wants a crossbow, then a crossbow...if he wants a trad bow, well then I would get him into a light target bow first, then after alot of practice he can come back and I would set him upwith a trad bow to go huniting with. See the diferance?? The compound and crossbow allow that 13 year old to be proficient to hit what he is aiming at (and ONLY that!!) in a short amount of time so he can gain confidence and enjoyment from archery. Does that make him a "bowhunter"?? Well, hecan wander thru the woodscarrying his compound or crossbow and scare a bunch of deer, but till he developes the rest of the skills a bowhunter needs he is going to come home empty handed. That is a big factor....the best compoundor crossbow in the world will not get you any more deer if you do not know how to "bow hunt".Learning to shoot a trad bow takes a level of determinationthat is lacking in many kids today. It is not quite like picking up a bow in World of Warcraft and being proficient at it. Modern equipment keeps the F&G funds coming in, new generations interesed in the sportAS A WHOLE, and the deer population under control. A few of those kids may even pick up trad stuff when they get bored of being able to hit the bullseye every time...

"Yes Wyvern it is my standard and only my standard!! Not once did I say everyone should do it the way I hunt, never did I say that! "

Actually, every time you stated "Thats not bowhunting!" or "Thats not a bow!" you set the standard for everyone. You did come back and say that in you "opinion" it was not a bow or not bow hunting. but that is the issue. You blanket crossbows with a label that is not correct. In any definition of a "bow" how much or how little is being held at full draw and how long it can be held for is not noted...those factors do not come into play in its definition...It is a bow. That is a fact that you refuse to accept. And the same goes for is it "archery". By definition (especialy TODAYS definition) it is archery. you dont like crossbows...fine..not an issue, but you would fight to keep them out of archery season based on an opinion that is flawed and is rooted in your standards and not fact. This keeps that 13 year old kid from having another choice of archery equipment that may get him into the woods and make him an ethical hunter who helps the rest of us by adding to the voice and dollars of all bowhunters. You can have your opinion and hunt the way you choose, but you cant opinion away facts and you are doing nothing positive for what bowhunting is and ultimately has to become to keep hunting open for all of us.

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"You can have your opinion and hunt the way you choose, but you cant opinion away facts and you are doing nothing positive for what bowhunting is and ultimately has to become to keep hunting open for all of us. "

That came out harsh...sorry...
Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I seriously doubt that, seeing how you post. Who knows with you. Probably needed to find someone to argue with, and BD wasn't posting much in politics. Maybe your following Duane around.:D Thats probably what it is.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I do nothing positive for the bow hunting world? This is coming from a salesman, low blow and expected from your kind! No wonder people get irritated with salesman. I myself too would set that kid up with a compound so he/she can get there feat wet. Thats how my folks started me out years ago.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

" do nothing positive for the bow hunting world? This is coming from a salesman, low blow and expected from your kind! No wonder people get irritated with salesman. "

That is the reason I followed it with an appology...I am hitting "send" too quick and that was uncalled for by me...

Again, I am sorry
Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Wyvern, I had posted before I ready your last couple of posts. Thanks for the clarification, and I apologize if I came across the wrong way. I don't think any less of you or anyone else for enjoying a crossbow, or wanting to use one in archery season. I'm just a country boy living in the sticks in MS, and just stated my opinion--that's all it was, and all it's worth.

At the risk of stirring the pot again........

Let me play the devil's advocate here. I understand the need to introduce new hunters, especially kids, to the sport. I understand kids crave immediate results and often lack patience.

However, I really don't think that compounds and crossbows are the answer. Like you said, they won't magically make an animal appear in the woods. So they can hit the target after 20 minutes of instruction--then what? Will that keep them in the blind on or the stand for hours on end? Will it teach them to read signs and learn game habits?

Point being is, sooner or later, the kid or any new hunter is going to have tofind out that hunting isn't about instant gratification--you get back what you put into it. It takes work to be sucessful, and even if you work your butt off there are no guarantees.

Learning to shoot a bow is a step in thatprocess--finding out there's more to it that they see on the hunting shows, and gaining the confidence and satisfaction of getting something back when they put in the time to learn.

Kids are usually pretty amazing in how fast they can learn to shoot a bow.My son started when he was two. I'm in the process of helping several new archers learn to shoot--somehave shot a compound, some never shot a bow at all, and off and on there's about 10 kids involved. Everyone is having a ball with it, and several adults got involved after seeing how much fun their kids were having.

I don't think the answer is try to make it easier for them--if that's the case, stick a rifle in their hands, put them in a fence with a tame animal, and in 10 minutes they have completed their "hunt". They learn nothing, they work for nothing, and it winds up meaning nothing.

Like I said, we get back what we put into it.If we have a concern about the future of hunting, we need to bring folks in and help them learn what it's all about. We can talk and debate and fuss back and forth on message boards, or we can get out and do something. That, in my opinion, is the answer.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"Wyvern, I had posted before I ready your last couple of posts. Thanks for the clarification, and I apologize if I came across the wrong way."

No need to apologize...this is usually a very heated exchange and I am one of the WORST at hitting "send". I have probably done more to warrent apologizing on here than anyone.:)

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"Like I said, we get back what we put into it.If we have a concern about the future of hunting, we need to bring folks in and help them learn what it's all about. We can talk and debate and fuss back and forth on message boards, or we can get out and do something. That, in my opinion, is the answer."

Excelent statement!!!!
Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Has anyone seen this yet?

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2679900

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Good post Burnie, you have some good points in here! Its more the bow hunting heritage that I'm looking after or worried about. If no one did care and if P@Y didn't give a damn either who knows what people would be bow hunting with today.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

No problem. Apology excepted!;) I often get worked up too.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I probably don't visit that forum once a year......do I need to elaborate why? I'm afraid these guys are cutting their own throat, and ours too in the process.

I'd also like to point out that the elephant Fred Bear killed with his 75# recurve isjust as dead as the one pictured there........[8D]

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Yeah, Chad, it really goes a long way toward illustrating the point I was trying to make earlier, way back there on page 25.

I'vesaidall I've got to say on this thread. See ya later!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

You got it LBR! What happened anyway on that thread? Went to check it out and a bunch of stuff was deleted out.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I agree Art--I was just trying to avoid going off on a different tangent--hard enough to keep up as it was.

Schultzy, I have no idea what was removed or why--I just don't visit that board much at all.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Lanse couche couchedo you study human nature any ? I do. Humans like EASY. They'll take it anywhere they can get it and rarely do they go for harder. They'll drive 3 miles further down the road to use a gas pump thats pay outside instead of going in. they'll go to one grocery store instead of another just becuase they don't have to sack their own groceries.

Human LOVE easy. Easy equals BETTER too, thats very common belief.

But let me submit this, its NOT always better and I'd argue it actually is WORSE.

Pro-ball players using steroids to make things easier and better - but itsmade it worse. Thats a good example right there.

I thinkpeople searching for easy with their bows have lost what it is to HUNT. They shoot farther, more accurate, higher letoffs, more tricks and gadgets, scent lock clothing, electronic calls, more deer scents than you can imagine, scent prrof gum, ATV's, cam corders, $10,000 leases ........ good gawd, when did deer hutning get to this point ?

When people shifted from hunting the hard way to the EASY way.

Make no mistake, there is a differnt in hunting for sportand hunting for meat - that seperates what most of us do today from what our grandfathers did 60-70 years ago. They needed the meat, we don't.

The shift, to easy, also follows right in line with selfishness, and the need to kill big antlers and bragging rights. Its all wrapped together.


Go to a trad only site. They post pics of does killed with self bows and they're more proud than guys shooting 150" bucks with compounds. I mean that too - and they'd rather their son kill a doe with a recurve on top of that or their best friends.

I hunted last fall in Canada with a group of trad hunters, it was enlightening. It was ALL about the hunt, the experience, the killing of cariobu was the least thought of thing. Its hard to describe, it was NOTING like a compound or rifle camp IMO.

NEW61375 fair enough answer


does it bother you that any 13 year old kid can get hunting good with a compound in a very short time and hunt with it ?





I'm going to use that as my sig line - you've finally crossed the line to the dark side :)

we get what we put in it .......... isn't that the truth ?

LBR knows it, he can shoot a 170" buck with a crossbow and say okay, nice buck, glad I got him, good meat. He shoots a 125" buck with a bow a buddy made, a string he made, some arrows custom made for him, maybe some trad clothers, you know, what MAKES the hunt and suddenly that 125" bucks is SO frickin more of a trophy that words can't describe.

I've killed my share of animals. 300" elk, 140's whitetails, mule deer, antelope ........ my 11 point TD longbow buck was by far my greatest accomplishment IMO. Funny how that is, and some of my unfilled tag hunt ? More successful with a recurve than my tag-filled hunts with a compound.

That don't make sense unless you've been there and done that, does it to some ?