RE: Elitist attitude
 

I don't agree.... If you can't control a deer herd in 2.5 months with firearms, you have to look elsewhere for the answer... The problem is most guys shoot one doe and then try to get their limit of 3 bucks.... A logical solution would be make each buck tag an earn a buck situation...

RE: Elitist attitude
 

This has to be some sort of record length thread.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Stealthycat has always been good at keeping the pot stirred andbubbling for a long time. Gets kinda boring after awhile though.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I've reached a point in this thread where I keep getting the same error message on my screen:

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Excellent post Chad!! I think in allot of cases with hunter#'s being down in most states is because of laziness. More people these days would rather sit in front of the boob tube with a bag of chips and add to there already oversized gut instead of actually getting out there and doing some walking around, its too much work! The kids these days are being raised much different then we all were. My entertainment as a young fart was working on dairy farms or running around outside shooting sparrows with my little recurve driving my mom nuts hoping an arrow wouldn't hit the house. The kids these days entertainment is Video games or maybe the computer, my folks wouldn't allow it, we did have a Nintendo but mom and dad put strict time restrictions on it!! Hunter #'s will be down in the future because of how parents let there kids sit in the house 24/7 and not actually learn whats going on outside of the walls. And if kids want to try something, they want to do it the easiest way possible and the parents say ok you can. Parents are the ones to blame, at least a big majority of them, not the hunting restriction's of certain weapons!!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

brucelanthier what bow do you choose and why ?


Most all compounders don't want crossbows in general archery, they want to limit the crossbow opportunity. But mention taking compunds out and limiting THEIR opporuntity and a hornets nest has been hit with a cannon ball.

A30/06 is a cartridge shell - there is your seperation from most states rules and regs.

A handicap person can't use a rifle in muzzleloader, they can't use unplugged shotguns in duck season, they can't shoot rifle in slug gun only areas ....... why can they use crossbows in general archery season ?

That is a truely baffling and contradictory thing isn't it ?


I don't know how bad your ankle is, I can't really say, but I DO know that if allowed on handicap basis, it opens up things to a whole world of fraud. How many crossbow permit holders really could shoot a compound or recurve ? 75% ? 90% ?


Things changed to allow archery only - you think we shouldn't have done that ? Things changed to allow compound in - bad mistake ? Things changed to allow >65% letoff, mechanical releases, fiber sights, mechnaical broadheads ....... bad mistakes ?


Archery & Bowhutning has changed continually to accomodate compounds - right ? When was the last time a law or rule or reg was changed to accodate a recurve or longbow shooter ?

Accodations happen yearly


Double Creek I can make the same arhument, saying that you can use a compound in rifle season, if you REALLY want to bowhunt, learn how to use a real bow (recurve or longbow) and we'll welcome you with open arms.

Same argument, isn't it ?




Its all about defining what a bow is, and how continually accomodating more and more technology for compounders bridges closer and closer the gap between what is and what isn't a bow. Its also about hutner numbers, and bowhunter numbers, and the impacts of allowing new things for archery and bowhunting.

Its been mentioned how people want their easy - they get it with compounds, and compounds dominated archery and bowhunting ever since the rules and regulations were changed to allow them. States like IL and WI and MI - what do you think the % of compound archery kills is ? 98% ? 95% ? Its almost all of them, so its easily proven that when archery and bowhunting allowed compounds, they took over.

The fear now is, that if crossbows were allowed, THEY would take over. Ironic, those who took over being afraid of being taken over isn't it ?



Question to LBR and Doublecreek = if crossbows were allowed this fall in MS how would your hunting change ? What would the impact to MS archery be ?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Perhaps you should read my posts a little more closely ;).

RE: Elitist attitude
 

It wouldn't effect my hunting.... But neither would allowing guns into archery season.... But it would affect the overall spirit of a special, bow only season.. I don't consider the xbow a bow and neither do about 40+ other states and their related bowhunting associations...

You are saying a line in the sand needs to be drawn.... I draw mine when you no longer have to pull the bow back in the presence of game(ie.. xbow)

Im not saying a guy can't hunt with an xbow, he just cant hunt with it during archery season. You can't hunt with a rifle during primitive weapons season either... EXACT same scenario IMO

RE: Elitist attitude
 

The sand to draw that line in got washed away when the baby got thrown out w/ the bath water in '69-'70, when the compound came out. Just a thought: archery has changed more in our short lifetimes than it has in the last several thousand years. Shoot what you shoot well...

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Do a little research--you are miles off base. Archery seasons were lobbied for, worked for, and established for........you guessed it--archery! If those before us hadn't done the work, there wouldn't be a season. Seems there were no crossbow pioneers willing to do that for their weapon of choice, either then or now.

Like DC said, nothing was taken away from anyone--they were added on due to the low impact the weapons have (or had at least), and at least here in MS we sure as heck didn't get the pick. Our season opens October 1st--sounds nice, right? Try bowhunting with temps usually around 80 degrees, trying to avoid the snakes (we have plenty, including copperheads, cottonmouths, and several different rattlers--all who enjoy the same woods as the whitetails), ticks, mosquitoes, gnats, deer flies, horseflies, etc. etc. etc. Our rut (where I live) doesn't normally start until late December/early January--well into rifle season. I'm not whining and complaining and demanding that we get our fair share of the rut just for archery season, because not doing so "limits my opportunities".

How bad my ankle is varies--some days I barely have a limp,sometimes I'm on crutches and have to pop a pain pill to get through the day, but it's usually somewhere in-between. A lot of it depends on how much I do. Either way, it has no bearing on my ability to shoot a bow--anymore than a guy missing a leg. Heck, I've shot tournaments on crutches, with an air cast on my leg,and with a hard cast--and I didn't even ask for any special treatment either (and didn't get any, other than someone usually pulled my arrow for me). I've also hunted like that--I've got pictures of me bowfishing for stingray in a hard cast. I still plan to do an elk hunt, and hope to go to Australia for water buffalo before I'm totally unable--but if I don't get to because of my ankle, or finances, I'm not going to cry about it not being fair that I didn't get the same opportunities as some other hunters.

Again, I'm going to leave my thoughts on compounds out of this--hard enough to keep up as it is.

If crossbows were allowed in the archery season, I'd be a heckof a lot more nervous about hunting public land during archery season. I avoid the woods during the rifle opener now--just too dang dangerous. I don't guess I'll ever forget a comment from a debate on a different site--think this guy was from AR also. He was a staunch defender of crossbows--he called his crossbow his "jump and shoot bow". Yep, that's what we need more of.:eek: I have no idea how it would affect the season in general.

Back to the same 'ol same 'ol though--the point for me is simple. It's archery season. I don't consider crossbows to be bows. Only bows belong in archery season.

If crossbows are eventually allowed, I won't roll over and die, I won't go on a hunger strike, and I won't send hate mail to the manufacturers. Iwon't agree with it, but I'll adapt like always, and I'll teach my son what a bow is so hopefully he'll grow up with a respect for the tradition, the weapon, and those who workedso hard to get it for us.......even if there is no longer a reason to respect the season .

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

actually rifles WOULD change everything.Success rates would be, well, like rifle season, meaning your archery season would be reduced bigtime.

those same states didn't recognize compounds a few decades ago, are you glad they changed the laws ?





WHY do you believe that ? Factshave been presented that show compounds MORE accurate and better shooting, heck a crossbow would be a step down if you look at it a certain way.

Can you honestly say that a tricked out compound isn't the equivalent weapon, maybe even a BETTER weapon in the woods for a bowhunter ?

I can tell you in states that allow both, the majority STILL use compounds. Why ? If crossbowswere THAT much better ?

Truth is, they aren't. Truth is, P&Y were the anti-crossbowzealots that set the tone for the hatred and its alive and well today too even with compounds pushing thresholds never thought possible by bowhunters.

Double Creeka compounds isn't primitive, in no way, shape or form is it. You'll allow it but not a crossbow, but WHY ? Because its the way we were raised oryou TRULYdeep down think that drawing a fraction of the weight of a bow and holding it for a few minutes while adeer works its way in is that huge of a factor ? C'mon man,I know you and I both have hunted with compounds and recurves and the differences is night and day, and crossbowsfall on theside with crossbows.

brucelanthieryou use compounds for the same reasonmost people choose crossbows don't you ?


LBR tell more abouthow that all happened. It was forged, fought for, battled and WON by recurve and longbow shooters. Compounders did none of the groundwork, they didn't exist and when they did, they were not considered bows.

they were added - something you've already talked about. Ammended to, added to, rules and regs changed to allow them into a primitve season.

Quote:

---

If crossbows were allowed in the archery season, I'd be a heckof a lot more nervous about hunting public land during archery season

---

LBT want to explain that ? C'mon man, distant records are set with trad bows and compounds, not crossbows. The type opf person shooting a bow can be holding ANY bow in their hand, responsibility doesn't follow the shooter does it ?

How many injuries every year with compounds vs crossbows ? C'mon no stats back up being afraid of archery season with crossbows in them. Truth is, like Arkansas, there will be more compounders in the woods anyway, be afraid of them.

Quote:

---

I have no idea how it would affect the season in general.

---

I do, we got 'em and you see more compounds in the woods than crossbows. Go figure huh ? I've seen quite few stories and pic on compound wounds and accidents in the woods. Never a crossbow though, though I'm sure its happened

Quote:

---

If crossbows are eventually allowed, I won't roll over and die, I won't go on a hunger strike, and I won't send hate mail to the manufacturers. Iwon't agree with it, but I'll adapt like always, and I'll teach my son what a bow is so hopefully he'll grow up with a respect for the tradition, the weapon, and those who workedso hard to get it for us.......even if there is no longer a reason to respect the season .

---

If they're legalized for everyone (remember they ARE legal right now in MS) they will not affect your hunting any. They will bring a few more hunters to the woods, your bag limits and seasons will not be affected, and you'll see more compounds afield than crossbows anyway. I say that using the history of crossbows in Arkansas and Iowa etc as my benchmark, they've never been a negative.

I'm teaching my bow too - that recurves and longbows forged the archery seasons in this country. Compounds and crossbows were allowed into that season later because people like to take shortcuts. They don't want to learn the hard way, they want the easier way. Compounds and crossbows give people that easier way.

I hunted for a long time with compounds. I hunted last year with one in part. They're much more accurate, they're easier, not near the level of committment. They're designed to shoot very hard, quiet and accurate to long ranges.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

No, not at all. Why, is that the reason you used one for 13 years?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

The fact is Big Duane... You can't go back and take away a weapon once its been established(ie. the compound).. I agree that it may not be a huge difference between a tricked out compound and an xbow, but you have to stop the innovation at some point... Since we know our state would never do away with compounds, we draw the line at xbows...

Our association has fought some big battles the last few years against the xbow and our research shows participation in archery seasons in other southern states has showed a declining trend in hunter numbers since allowing the xbow in... We look at Georgia and Alabama, who just recently let xbows into archery season.. Their numbers have declined while ours have stayed level..... How much is attributable to the xbox? We can't say for sure, but our states are very similar and the only change has been the xbow....

But like I said, the #1 reason we fight xbow is b/c we dont see it as a bow and letting it in the season sets precedent for other weapons.. Sure, you can point at other states and say that has not happened.... I agree, it may never would happen... We have elected to take the approach of better safe than sorry..... The argument that it will bring in new hunters does not hold water based on the declining overall archery numbers in our neighboring states... We also look to states like Ohio where the majority of archery kills are by xbow... We dont want that in our state and we will continue to fight it tooth and nail.....

You don't think they will take your archery season? Think again... Our association lobbied for and got a late bow only season the last 2 weeks of the season.... That lasted for years.... It no longer exists... We now share that time with muzzleloaders... In addition, when the state implemented a youth week for firearms, instead of taking a week from adult firearm hunters, they took one the archery only weeks.... Sure, we all agree and support the youth week, but it just goes to show that archery season in an after thought and they will take it away in a heart beat.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

The UnitedBowhunters of PA fought the good fight and lost the Xbow in archery season[:@]Heck the PGC evenhas a three day ML gun antlerless hunt during archery season. Thats in-line ML and flintlock. The late season is flintlock only for buck if you still have a tag. You can use a in-line late season in the special regs areas for Doe only not Bucks! Its all about the $$$$$ if you ask me, part of it anyway! Xbows and guns in archery season is burr in my boot. But thats the PGC! They live in a grey world with some of the regulations the come up with!!

Hatchet Jack

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Becuase I didn't want to spend the time and committment on using a trad bow. I didn't want to use a bow that ws maybe 25-30 yard 10" groups when I could get 40-50 yard 3" groups. I didn't want to practice year round. I wanted a bow that was easy, accurate and a compound is made for just that.

Yous use a compound because its easier ? No. Less accurate ? No. harder ? No. More challenging ? No.

You use a compound because of the same reasons we all do/did. If I'm wrong, tell me how


Double Creek

There might be truth to that, however, with declining hunting numbers and you've already said ya'll can't kill enough deer, not much difference in thenew compoundsand crossbows ........ open the door just a bit more why don't you ?

Compounds were allowed back when they were 50% letoff and not much better than recurves. My how things have changed. If todays bows were what were back in the 1970's compounds would never have been allowed.

email me that info, I'd be curious to read it - I thought the fear on crossbows allowed would mean MORE bowhutners by the thousands ? Thats isn't true ?


its never happened before why would it now ?

Which is it ? Allowed crossbows means fewer hunters - that would NOT lead to "taking your archery season" would it ? I'm confused, you're making a case that crossbows don't lead to any more hunters, then right around and saying that you fear allowing them would shorten your seasons ??



?????



in Mississippi can you bowhunt during rifle and muzleloader seasons ?


how many days of archery season have you lost because of it ? how much decrease in tag numbers based only on crossbows being allowed ?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

As I understand it, time was added to the hunting season specifically for archery. Nobody using any other weapon lost even one day, or had their season changed to accomodate archery season.

Quote:

---

C'mon man, distant records are set with trad bows and compounds, not crossbows. The type opf person shooting a bow can be holding ANY bow in their hand, responsibility doesn't follow the shooter does it ?

---

You can't simply point and shoot a bow in a split second. You don't carry a bow around locked, cocked, and loaded with only a few lbs. pressure from one finger required to launch the arrow. The one guy's comments about his crossbow being his "jump and shoot bow" really worried me, and still does. We know there are stupid people in this world that shoot at shadows, sounds, movements, etc. The few seconds it takes to get a string back could mean the difference.

Quote:

---

I do, we got 'em and you see more compounds in the woods than crossbows. Go figure huh ?

---

My main point from the beginning has not hadto do with the effect crossbows may or may not have on the season. It's simply that crossbows are not bows, and do not belong in thearchery season. I also mentioned that if the market gets opened up, and the money starts pouring in, it's very likely we'll see advances never thought about--just like we've seen with compounds in the last 10 years.I don't think the market has been big enough for thebig money to be poured into them yet--and even with the limited market, go back and read what Matt said about them--how much they have advanced just lately.

Quote:

---

If they're legalized for everyone (remember they ARE legal right now in MS) they will not affect your hunting any.

---

Bull. First, they are only legal for a slim minority (disabled and elderly, two groups who don't generally hunt a lot to begin with). I already told you one way it will effect me--there will be folks that don't know or care to learn about the weapon, other than how to load, aim, and pull the trigger--taking them to the woods in droves. Adults to lazy to bother, and their kids that they won't teach. We need to bring in a bunch of folks that think a crossbow is a "jump and shoot" weapon, without knowing squat else about it. I figure most will give it up eventually, once they find out that crossbows aren't magical, but at what cost? I figure that 99% of those that care a bit about hunting already hunt.

That's the main reason I won't even give my opinion on compounds--it won't mean anything anyway. I will say this--compounds started out innocently enough--I bet that anyone who is decent with a recurve, especially one with sights, could out-shoot someone with any of the early compounds--not to mention how heavy, noisy, and unreliable they were. I have an old Hoyt that's less than 20 years old--old, but not nearly one of the first--I believe my longbow is more efficient.

Who could have predicted how much, and how fast, compounds would advance? That camel is already in the tent--nothing can be done about it. We can try to keep the crossbow camel out though.

Again, my point exactly.

DC goes on to make more excellent points. We are the most vunerable--nobody is going to take anything away from the gun season--there's too much money to be made. Money will continue to push and eat away at our archery season as well, unless we take a stand. We only got the crumbs as it is--and nowsome folks are trying to steal even those from us.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

You are very wrong ;).

I use a compound because it was my introduction to bowhunting, 14 months now. I am mostly self taught although I did attend a two day class given Len of Macrotech. I have come a long way, I think, in 14 months. I can tune a bow, arrows and an arrow to a bow or vice versa. I can build an arrow to suit a bow and draw weight while taking into consideration the total arrow weight and the FOC. And so on.

I started bowhunting because I wanted to shoot arrows instead of guns and I am damn good with a gun. It seemed to fit in with what I wanted to get out of hunting now, for many different reasons and none of them were length of season, accuracy, etc.

I am in this forum because, while I love to tinker and compounds are great for that, I want to simplify my hunting, my bowhunting, further. BY simplify I do NOT mean make it easier, I mean remove all of the "extras". I am sure you know what I mean ;).

The first arrow I ever shot was so quiet compared to shooting a gun. I knew then I had made the correct move :D.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"It's simply that crossbows are not bows, and do not belong in thearchery season"

This is very little other than an unsupported opinion and a clear statement of the "MY season!" attitude of the anti crossbow crowd. The definition of a bow (as stated many times before) has nothing to do with the ability to hold it drawn or the length of time it can be held that way. A crossbow is a bow...deal with it (and I will even go so far as to say the "bow plus" comment is not that far off). You of course are entitled to your opinion. This is very similar to a theological debate. You "believe" one thing, I "believe" another. The problem with "beliefs" is when facts about crossbows and their impact on hunting are presented that contradictthose "beliefs" then all people do is fall back on "its not a bow!" Ihonestly feel sorry for you that you feel so threatend and sincerelywish that all that energythat these "bowhunting orgaizations" are putting into thisimagined threat could be put to better use...say against the anti-HUNTERS for example...

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over........

It's not just my opinion--any rational definition of a bow does not include a stock, forearm, trigger, etc. Ifa crossbow is in the same category as a bow, then a Browning BAR and a flintlock should be in the same category. Definition of a crossbow includes some of the same things as a bow--similar ammunition, similar means of propelling it. Definition of an automatic rifle and muzzleloader has the same similarities--similar ammunition, similar means of propelling it. Actually, get right down to it the BAR and muzzleloader are in the same category--firearms--but try using that toexplain to the DNR why you are justified in taking a semi-auto 30-.06 in the woods during muzzleloader season.

I don't feel threatened by the crossbow so much, other than safety concerns. I don't think the deer herd will plummet if they are allowed in archery season. As far as that goes, I don't think it would affect the herd much if any if flintlock muzzleloaders were allowed in archery season--THEY SIMPLY ARE NOT BOWS, AND DO NOT BELONG IN THE ARCHERY-ONLY SEASON--my opinion, and the primary reason I don't want them in the archery season--just like I don't want flintlocks allowed in the archery-only season. I don't hate them, I'm not scared of them, I don't personally feel threatened by them--I keep saying this over and over and over, yet it keeps coming back again and again and again.

I've been honest about this from the start. I don't consider a crossbow to be a bow, and I've given legitamate reasons, comparisons, and definitions. I'm not making stuff up concerning your personal feelings to give my opinion a foundation. I could come up with stuff like "you are just lazy" or "you just don't want to learn to be competent with a real bow", etc. etc. etc. just like I keep getting told I'm scared, insecure, ignorant,whatever--but I don't think that's the case at all. I think you just like them, and you want your quiet time in the woods with them away from firearms like I do.

Fine and dandy for the primitive weapons season, or get together and lobby for an extension of the seasonfor those weapons like bowhunters did. Probably wind up just taking another chunk out of the archery season, like the 2 weeks we lost in MS a few years ago to "primitive" weapons, but I don't think it should just be laid in your lap because you want it and choose to call a crossbow a bow.

I think it was already asked, but I'll ask anyway--do you want to keep rifles out of the archery season? If so, aren't you just as guilty of the "my season" mentality?

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Big Duane.... We don't fear increased numbers with xbows or xbows taking "our" season... We fear it sets a precedent for OTHER weapons.. Primarily muzzleloaders or maybe even a doe only gun season, both of which have been tossed around by the law makers.. They tell us we can't kill enough deer. Our arguement is, if MS hunters cant kill enough deer with 2.5 months of gun season, extra time isnt the issue. They need to look to other avenues to increase the doe harvest...

I've attached a good recap of the xbow situation that our association's legislative watch dog posted on our dept. of wildlife website. This summarizes our battle and beliefs pretty good I think.

Emotions can sometimes run high on this subject and I can understand to a degree both sides. I see crossbows as a valid sporting weapon; but not in the archery season other than the handicapped or disabled. Those who favor the crossbow in archery season often point out the crossbows similarities to a vertical bow, but always leave out the dissimilarities...and you can't have one without the other.

Lets look at facts..

1) Compounds were legalized in 1974 to allow more participation by hunters..especially women and children. I don't think anything has changed as that is still true. Why the crossbow argument? My son was 10 on his first bowkill and I have friends whose children were as young as 8. I refuse to accept that abled body adults can't use archery gear. Maybe you can pull only 35 pounds...that's more than enough for whitetails. My son killed many deer with recurves of the same approx weight.

2) The last time I looked, the state allowed free will participation in the archery season by any hunter for the mere cost of a license. The opportunity to hunt doesn't neccesarily extend to an individuals choice of weapon. Choice is wonderful, but it has it's limits. To argue anything less and you have to support an open, pick any weapon format.

3) Does anyone really want to take the disabled and elderly special privileges away? The use of the crossbow allows them to participate equally with other hunters...despite their special challenges. Opening it up to anyone is like a perfectly healthy driver taking the handicapped parking spot at Walmart and saying...they can still park anywhere they want!"

4) Georgia is down almost 25% in archery participation since the crossbows legalization in 2002. Forgiveness of the states actions by bowhunters is hard to get there.

5) Alabama participation in the archery season has also dropped double digits since the crossbow was legalized. See item number 4.

6) Kentucky rolled back it's crossbow legalization to only part of the archery season...due to extreme opposition by the states bowhunters.

7) Mississippi's archery participation has held steady over the last few years and actually has shown a small growth as opposed to our crossbow neighboring states whose participation is plummenting.

8) The politics of the situation is similar to that of the 'primitive weapon' changes. To usher in one small change doesn't stop at that...it goes on and on and on and on etc.

9) Only 12 states out of 50 allow ANY crossbow usage in the archery season by anyone other than the disabled. The first state was Arkansas and Ohio in the early and mid 70's. After 30+ years only 12 states?..hardly sounds like a ground swell of support. By comparison the compound was legalized in all 50 states in 7 years.

10) In Ohio bowhunters are the minority users in the archery season. crossbow users make up 55% of the total participates. In Arkansas, around 45% are crossbow users.

11) A new age of crossbow technology is being developed. One crossbow maker advertises 400 FPS speeds. Since the hunter doesn't have to pull the bowstring..there is no end to the innovation of the product.

12) Every national and state bowhunter organization opposes the crossbows legalization in the archery season. A strong coalition of state and national bowhunter organizations has been formed to unify bowhunters across the nation and to pool collective efforts to defeat it's further emproachment upon the archery seasons of America.

12) Most importantly, no poll ever shows that hunters want the crossbow legalized. Partly due to the fact, that the crossbow has no American heritage and history as a sporting component. Bowhunters are overwhelmingly against it (90% plus by some surveys) and polls that include all hunters typically show a 50/50 split in support. Why upset the apple cart when the season works fine? It "ain't" broke..don't fix it. The people that actually use the archery seasons, buys equipment, learns skills, and supports special archery seasons by license sales....they don't want it. Exceptions do exist.


My concern is that if you ever break the status qou of legally prescribed weaponry...no one (including myself) knows where the yellow brick road leads. I'll be the first to admit, that I have many doubts on the subject, yet careful consideration leads me to think that it's not in the best interest of bowhunting to legalize the crossbow in archery only season formats.

Here are those archery numbers from other states that I have talked about. The why's of the recent drops are hard to answer, but the trends are alarming. Through the same time period (up to 2005 when the latest figures were released....Mississippi archery numbers have held steady)

Alabama:
2001-2002 55,400
2002-2003 67,200 (crossbows legalized)
2003-2004 74,500
2004-2005 70,300
2005-2006 62,700

Georgia
Archery Hunters
2001 109008
2002 96721
2003 97392 (crossbows legalized)
2004 111682
2005 88667
2006 81050

And here is MS numbers with an explanation from our head biologist :

We get our hunter estimate numbers from mail survey data. One thing to note is that in 2003 the survey methodology changed and this could be the reason for the drastic decline between 2002 and 2003.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

So if you allow anyone to use a crossbow it is like letting anyone take a handicapped spot at Walmart???? Who writes this stuff???

If I poll 100 members of "bowhuntin orgaizations" that preach crossbows are not bows I get a 90% "against it" vote....Since when did the DNC run crossbow polls????

Even if you allow crossbows, the number of archers is dropping...Hmmm...how long till the archery kill drops enough that they let in guns to control the herd??? Seems that rather than fighting crossbows, you should be embracing them and making more efforts to get bows...ANY bows...in new peoples hands rather than waste you time fighting an archery weapon that may increase your ranks and give you more clout against the antis and gun hunters.

I dont have the time an energy to go thru this bit by bit, but I can easily take all of your arguments and turn them pro crossbow. As I said before...you are entitled to your opinion and belief. My concern is that unless you change your attitude and start taking some of this energy and focus on getting more archers into your ranks (leave crossbows out for the moment) then you will loose archery season to the gun hunters.

The argument has been made here that compound users dont shoot much...OK..what can us traditional guys do to change that??? The equipment should only matter in the smallest detail."Archery season" needs archers...ALL archers...if not, then it becomes several weeks where the state makes little money that gun hunters will be very happy to step in and cough up cash for tags during those weeks. I actually do see what you are saying (I dont agree, but see your point) about "where does it end" as far as equipment, but ultimately looking at the numbers THAT YOU PROVIDED...you guys are missing the boat as to how to imporve things...


OK...here is a good one...how many are bowhunter safety instructors in your states???
NASP instructors??? SCA marshals???of any other thing that gets bows into peoples hands and helps promote the sport? I am sure many of you are. Those that are not have no room to complain about the situation of a drop in archers....

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

It seems you missed the entire point of thread....Its a myth that letting crossbows in will strengthen the numbers... See the data I provided..

After 2 years of secretary of the MS Bowhunters Association and about to go on my another 2yr term, I can assure you I've done my part in promoting, protecting, and preserving bowhunting in this state.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"It seems you missed the entire point of thread....Its a myth that letting crossbows in will strengthen the numbers... See the data I provided.. "

No...I caught it, but to avoid the "its not a bow" thing I did not say my first thought that if this is the case the huge influx of gun hunters tearing up the woods during archery season is a myth as well. But since it got brought up again...if they make no negitive impact, why not let them in and possible convert some gun hunters to swell the ranks of archers??? I know, I know..."its not a bow":eek:

"After 2 years of secretary of the MS Bowhunters Association and about to go on my another 2yr term, I can assure you I've done my part in promoting, protecting, and preserving bowhunting in this state"

Good for you...:)

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

allowing crossbows would be the same thing then wouldn't it ? You change a seasons rules to allow a different kind of equipment, like when bowhutning added compounds, mechanical releases, mechanical broadheads, >65% letoff bows etc.

We've not seen that in Arkansas, I don't hink Ohio has seen it, Canadian provinces haven't seen it ....... why do you think it'd be that big a deal ?

Again, we don't have that in Arkansas, why would it magically appear in Mississippi if crossbows were legal ?



brucelanthier tell me why you don't sell all your compound gear right now and go trad then ? do you really want to try and tell me a compound isn't more powerful ? easier to draw and hold ? easier to be more accurate with ?

wanna know something ? I can shoot your compound pretty dang good. Give me 3-4 shots to get a feel for it, and I'll be shooting very good groups in short order

Can you do that with my recurve ?

wanna know something else ? Most men and women can do it too. Not AS good AS quickly as me, because I've shot before, but its a sighting system and trigger - compounds are DESIGNED to shoot accurate !

That not to take away from your bowhunting either. Its tough, bowhunting is. I can count many times deer have busted me trying to get that 20 yard range. I can't ocunt many times it would have mattered any if I'd have had a compound or crossbows - probably about equal ammounts that one would have given me an advantage over the other. Thats the truth too - a crossbow is worthless trying to turn around for deer behind you. Worthless for second shot opportunities. Worthless for elk hunting and stalking antelope.

I can count all those times about and many more that HAVING a compound in my hand or crossbow would have made all the difference instead of the recurve in my hand. There is THAT much differnece.



Because there IS that much difference, I really don't see that it matters if a guy has a compound or crossbow. It aint much difference, its never proven to be a negative in archery / bowhunting season and it wont' affect my hunting in the least.

30+ years now and it hasn't, that it magically would is almost a non existant possibility IMO






you really see a crossbow the same as a rifle don't you ? Gunpower, bullets or not, you see them as the same ?

I'd make a wager with you Chad. This fall hunt with a crossbow in Arkansas with me. Come up and you can shoot my Dad's Excalibur. You'll have no more deer within 20 yards because of it. None of them will give you any better shots than if you had your Crusader in your hand.You'll not be able to still hunt with it like you could your longbow, and you won't be able tostand and shoot anything behind you. You won't ever get another shot.You WILL be able to shoot without making much movement, thats a plus but its so loud you might not get the deer because of jumping the string.

The crossbow in your hand ..... it will not make you a better hunter. I think it would actually make YOU a worse hunter because you're not use to the restrictionsshooting a crossbow has !

Hunt the next week with me and shoot my Q2, and you'll have very similar luck. Sight, trigger, you won't have to wait until the deer isright there to focus/draw. Its quiter. You can get a 2nd shot if you're lucky. You can still hunt with it.

It won't make you a better huntereither. You'llnot get more P&Y bucks by you because of it.

Both bows WILL give you a better chance to kill deer over your stickbow because they're powerful, flat shooting, they havesights, trigger releases, they're DESIGNED to make you much more accurate, thus a higher % of kills can be had.


the whole point of my thread - YES ! we ARE guilty, we all are unless you truley either want it to go back to being archery/bowhunting season (thats recurves and longbows the way it originally was) or to the other side of the pendulum and want to allow it all.

if you call in between those then you're an elitist. you want YOUR easy, or you you DON'T want someone else to have THEIR choice of weapons and it don't matter all the stuff you liost to justfiy it ..... in the end, you'r saying you want to restrict whats allowed in archery season.

is that bad or good or ?? I dunno ....... sometimes I think allow it all, it won't hurt (look at all the states and provinces that allow them, no negatives come from it) or go trad only (like the few places (McAlister military base etc) and make it what it once was, truly a primitive season.





Doublecreek - what has Arkansas allowed that scares you along those lines ?



from those quotes

ban compounds then - make those kids use REAL BOWS !

Quote:

---

Does anyone really want to take the disabled and elderly special privileges away? The use of the crossbow allows them to participate equally with other hunters...despite their special challenges. Opening it up to anyone is like a perfectly healthy driver taking the handicapped parking spot at Walmart and saying...they can still park anywhere they want!"

---

ask all the handi-cap in Arkansas, they're more than happy to have everyone hunting in archery season. the above anaology is stupid anyway, archery hunting isn't a finitie number of tags like parking spaces

Quote:

---

4) Georgia is down almost 25% in archery participation since the crossbows legalization in 2002. Forgiveness of the states actions by bowhunters is hard to get there.

5) Alabama participation in the archery season has also dropped double digits since the crossbow was legalized. See item number 4.

---

WHY are those numbers down ? Nobody can seriously believe that compounders are staying homw with crossbows in the woods ? Thats a ridiculous thing to assume, there has to be another reason ?

Quote:

---

7) Mississippi's archery participation has held steady over the last few years and actually has shown a small growth as opposed to our crossbow neighboring states whose participation is plummenting.

---

where are the Arkansas and Ohio stats ? left out intentionally I see ? I submit the losses in hunting numbers don't have any direct relations to crossbows being allowed. The numbers were falling anyway

Quote:

---

10) In Ohio bowhunters are the minority users in the archery season. crossbow users make up 55% of the total participates. In Arkansas, around 45% are crossbow users.

---

I want to know where those stats come from. I rarely see crossbows in the woods, its almost always compounds ???

Quote:

---

11) A new age of crossbow technology is being developed. One crossbow maker advertises 400 FPS speeds. Since the hunter doesn't have to pull the bowstring..there is no end to the innovation of the product.

---

Matt / pA will tell you compounds are very close to that threshold too

Quote:

---

12) Most importantly, no poll ever shows that hunters want the crossbow legalized. Partly due to the fact, that the crossbow has no American heritage and history as a sporting component

---

LOL ....... HISTORY is crossbows, recurves and longbows. Compounds are the new kid on the scene, I can't believe they actually published that !




DoubleCreek you know that the anti-crossbow sentiment comes from people not wanting more people in the woods. They want it all to themselves. Its got really nothing to do with how a bow works, hell people can't even discuss the metrics of it !

It sth emost hypocritical thing in the world for a decked out compounds shooterto tell a crossbow he can't bowhunt in archery season. I mean, seriously .........

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I figure most any argument could be turned around--I don't want to make anyone mad, just stating my opinion and the reasons behind it.

I'm not a certified instructor, but I am fortunate enough to be in a situation where I have been able to bring a lot of young, and some older, hunters into the archery fold--with tradtional bows. I know kids are supposed to be impatient, won't bother learning to shoot traditional, etc.--somehow I've found a whole bunch that seem to think traditional archery is a blast and can't wait to come over and tear up my targets. Got four of them here right now, had two new possibilities earlier today.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Bowhunters are quitting hunting in areas where xbows have been legalized??????????
If true, I cannot fathom they cared all that much for it to start with and are using it as an excuse.

OR

With a FEW exceptions, overall numbers in all catagories are dropping nationwide.

Steve

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Big Duane,

I can only speak for myself... I do not want the woods to myself... I hunt family owned land anyway and already have it to myself so to speak. I'm anti-cross bow for the reasons I've mentioned. I just think it opens the door for other weapons. I'm only 30yrs old, so compounds have always been a part of my archery life... They have 35 years of history in this state and they are here to stay. At the very least, I want to hold on to the tradition of a archery only format... If we lose that, bowhunting as we know it is over... Maybe Im too romantic, but I don't want to lose that tradition.

Also, seeing how 95% of bowhunters shoot a compound, trying to get them banned is a losing battle and not worth fighting...

Just b/c someone wants to shoot an xbow during archery season, doesnt mean they should be able to.. Under our current rules, xbow lovers have 2.5 months they can enjoy their weapon.. I only bowhunt and I don't bitch b/c I have to share the woods with all the gunners during the most prime hunting times... I just accept it as it is and I hunt within that format.. I don't want to limit another hunters options... Under our format, you can hunt with any number of weapons for 4 months.. We feel that is ample opportunity.

One thing that is overlooked...... For guys like many of us in this forum, we are 100% bowhunters... So regardless of what season is in, we choose the bow..... Any changes in season formats will not have much effect on us b/c we deal with multiple weapons already...... HOWEVER.....for the 90% of bowhunters in MS that only do it for the extra time in the field, a one season format would be the demise of bowhunting... It would break my heart to see that happen... To lose that tradition.... That history..... It has already happened with the primitive weapon season.... That format is lost forever....

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Steve,

We never said it was b/c of the xbow, we just pointed that our 2 neighboring states that have introduced xbows in the last decade have experienced declining numbers while our numbers have remained steady and even grown.... Could be totally unrelated, but also is alarming enough not to simply dismiss.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

You're a funny little guy LOL. Perhaps you can show me whereI tried to tell you that a compound isn't more powerful, easier to draw, easier to be more accurate. Are you just making stuff up now?. It looks that way :eek:.

I am sure you can shoot a compound pretty well, you have had 13 yrs to practice LOL.

But don't be so sure I couldn't shoot your recurve fairly well. I mean, how hard can it be if you can do it ;)?

Now you run along little fella and make some BS to argue with someone else, OK? I'm done with you and this thread.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Arkansas has had them for 30+ years - what other weapons are you worried about ?


Double Creek Everything you said about crossbows can be said of compounds. " Be a Two Season Hunter " - remember that ? Who coined it and why ?

There was a time when bowhunting was recurves and longbows. If you wanted to hunt that season, learn how to use one. Somehow, compounds were allowed in, and now its their season, and they're fighting to not have the same thing happen to them as they did to trad archery.

Ironic, isn't it ?


Double Creekif you hunt your own lands, crossbows would never be an impact to you. The ONLY impact I can see (and its the same impact compounds bring) is more bowhunters, which you've provided evidence that it might not even help IF they are allowed. So ..... there is really no argument against them. Oh sure, we can bicker about how its drawed, but in reality, its a short range bow just like a compound.

There is an argument to be made for "choose your weapons" tags. In other words, you hunt with archery equipment or rifles/shotguns etc, you do not get to hunt with both. THat would weed out all the rifle guys wanting to come into archery season I gaurantee !

You implied it, or you'd not have posted the stats in relationship to your anti-crossbow stance. It IS a concern though, those huge declines in bowhunting numbers.

brucelanthierquestion marks ..... I used questions marks to indicate questions were being asked. I was not telling.

:D Truth is, VERY difficult and different or you'd be shooting one !

You don't have to validate whay I questioned, because I know the answer. I've been there and done that. You'll find you need to shoot your compound a week or two prior to archery season beginning to dust off the cobwebs, and your inches groups will be right where they were last year. Very littledifference. As you bowhunt more, you'll learn to draw as the animal is coming in, holding until it gives you the shot you want, using your sights and triggered release. You'll feel like anything within 30-40 yards of your stand you can kill anytime you wish - you're that accurate with your bow.

I've been there, and I've walked away and I'vewalked back. That accuracy, that power, that increased ability to make the killing shot is a powerful draw. And then yougo back, and you're like "wow, this isn't challenging at all" :(From that, I've learned a lot I think, in that the kill is less and less important. Its the journey, its the hunt, its the CHALLENGE.

Its all abour perspective too. Afirst year bowhunter never having stepped into the woods will finda crossbow huntingn VERY challenging. So would a life long rifle hunter. Orcompounds, they'd find the hunting vastly different.

But taking a trad bowinto the woods it totally different still

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I guess the old saying, "you have to pick your battles" applies in the situation regarding compounds.... That is a battle you absolutely can not win, so why bother? We can and have stopped xbows.... We can win that battle.. Sure, maybe there isn't much difference between a tricked out compound and an xbow, but I still percieve the xbow as an easier weapon to use and we HAVE to draw the line somewhere..

I personally think the mechanical release is what launches compounds into a category all its own..... The compound itself isnt really the problem, its all that goes with it that makes shooting it so easy.... A compound shooting 230 fps with a finger release isnt all that much different than a recurve... Its when you bump it up to 300fps with a mechanical release that changes the game drastically.....

As I've discussed with you, I myself may be going back to the compound this season due to some shoulder problems... I have no issues with that.... I realize its an easier weapon to master than my recurve... I can live with that.... But you can still keep the challenge alive while shooting a compound....

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Truth is I don't havea long bow or recurveor I'd be shooting it ;). Do you use a recurve because it is easier than a longbow?

I have found I need to shoot my compound every day if the weather permits (I can only shoot outside) so, trust me, no cobwebs to dust off.

The deer I killed this year, my first bow kill, was at 13 yds. I drew when he was at 14 yds as he passed behind a tree. I could have killed two others at 10 yds and 15 yds. I am already accurate at 50 yds but my hunting range is limited to 25 yds. If I wanted to shoot something at 30-40 yds I would just use my shotgun.

You make a lot of assumptions based on your reasons for compound bowhunting and assign them to all compound bowhunters. Fact is you don't know the answer, you just know your answers and think they are everyone's answers ;). If I were to do the same thing then I would assume that yes, while theremay bea desire for more challenge (you can do that just by imposing limitations on your current hunting methods) it is more a desire to achieve a different hunting aesthetic, to try and hunt in a way more in tune with the prey and the surrounding forest. But, based on what you have said, that isn't why you bowhunt, is it?

For me, I do not think the "end" of a hunt should be with a hugeexplosion and smoke with a shot at an animal that is far away. I want it to be more personal with less gadgets (why I am looking into recurves and longbows). If I wanted my hunting to be easy I would just stick with a gun. Why would I even pick up a bow to begin with?

If you need to boost your self-esteem by thinking thatthe manner in whichyou hunt is more difficult and therefore makes you a "better hunter" than others, that's fine. But to assume everyone else needs to be validated that way is a bit of a stretch. And to change the hunting seasons based on that is even more of a stretch. But it does make you an elitist LOL ;).

RE: Elitist attitude
 

To anyone opposing xbows during archery season. What would you think of a special xbow only season (1 or 2 weeks prior to bow season)?

And if something like that ever happened would you start hunting with one to gain the extra hunting time?

Just curious.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

How do you figure? Adding a weapon to a season is totally different than having a separate season addedfor a particular type weapon. If the DNR wants to add a couple weeks at the end of Sep. or beginning of Feb. (before our seasonnow begins or after it now ends)specifically for crossbows, I'm all for it. The crossbow proponents are going to have to get off their butts and work hard to lobby for it before it happens though.

As best I can tell crossbows are a tiny fraction of the market--probably no more than traditional bows. The main consumer--the U.S.--is still too limited a market. Like I said, even with the limited market there's already been big innovations made according to Matt. You know as well as I do if there's a big market potential like there is with compounds, there will be a tech race to see who can make it faster, quieter, lighter, easier, etc. etc. etc.

Yes you do, at least according to the fellow I "talked" to several years ago. You twoare the only folks I've talked to from AR about crossbows, and he fit the exact mold of the type person that scares me in the woods--and he had his youngson (who he claimed couldn't hunt with a bow for some reason--not a disability) using a crossbow as well. I don't know the actual percentage you have of that type "hunter", but in my experience so far it's been 66% counting the guy's son.

Lol--no I don't--to me they aren't a bow and they aren't a rifle--although they have as many similarities to one as they do the other. I'm not completely ignorant--I have shot them.

Well duhh.......I've made similar statements on this thread--like I figure that, if legalized, a bunch of folks will drop out soon after trying them when they find out crossbows aren't magical--the stats DC posted seem to point in that direction also--big surge, then big drop.

I want only archery equipment allowed in archery season. If that makes me an elitest, I can live with that.

About the same arguments made for crossbows could be made for side-hammer flintlock muzzleloaders. Primitive, lots of limitations, heavy, noisy, limited range, etc. etc. etc.--anyone pitching a fit to have these allowed in archery season? Why not? Easy--because it's not a bow! That point keeps getting ignored, sidestepped, walked over........."I say a crossbow is a bow, so........" and that's the extent of it, then on to how it's not really any easier, better, etc. etc. etc. That isn't the point.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

While I understand(does not mean agree)the argument about the xbow not having to be drawn I just can't help wondering....

If a crossbow is not a bow, what is it??

RE: Elitist attitude
 

IMO, it's a bow-plus. I look at it like this: you install the compents to make a AR-15 into a M-16 (semi-auto to full auto), you no longer have just a rifle. You still have the same basic parts as you had when it was a semi-auto, but you have added parts that will no longer keep it in the same category as just another rifle.

Although the appearance, ammunition, range, etc. hasn't changed, you still have to get a different license, you can't use the full auto for hunting, etc. etc. etc. because once you add those certain parts you have put the weapon in a different category.


Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

So it's a bow(plus). Just categorized differently because of some components.Sounds kind of like the difference between trad bows and compounds. When you get down to the nitty-gritty of it, it's a bow, a bow plus, whatever. The facts are there is no bullet, cartridge, gunpowder, etc and it is definitely a primitive weapon(considering the limited range and capabilities)so why not hunt during the early season or if it makes you feel better give them their own season like bp/muzzleloader? Why or why not? Also see questions above.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

What I find most entertaining about the people who jump up and down screaming "its not a bow!!!" and claiming they are "bowhunters" and those that use crossbows are not is that quite a few of them end up with some form of dissability and have to end up using a crossbow or sit home and watch Tred Barta. These same people try to associate with their "bowhunting buddies" and get the cold shoulder because they are "no longer a "bow"hunter. ( Remeber...I sell these things...I have more practical experience and information than just about anyone on this thread..) This happens ALOT!! Funny how after they get snubbed by their own kind quite a few of them become big pro-crossbow advocates. They learn that all the propoganda about crossbows is crap and that...dare I say it....they are STILL BOWHUNTERS!!

The vast majority of "bow hunters" use compounds because they are easier...many of those same people used to shoot trad. You can jump up and down all you want and make assanine claims like "its not a bow" but ultimately quite a few of you will end up shooting one and the more people realize that it is "just a bow" they will continue to gain acceptance and eventually be allowed into archery season like they should be.

There has been lots of talk about "drawing the line". It is very simple...put a weight limit on the bow (many states have this) or a speed limit on the arrow and make sure that the arrow is launced by a string attached to limbs that store energy that is transfered to the arrow (like the definition of a "bow" ) That will keep the explosive propelled arrows out of the picture, and manufacturers will not waste their time making 600lb draw crossbows is there is no market for them....problem solved.

Still amazes me that with the declining ranks of archers and the growing age of people in this sport (the hunters education meetings in my state look like the old folks home on bingo night) that you "bowhunter organizations" still waste so much time and energy and money on the imagined threat of crossbows and not putthat effort were it should be going. It really is sad....

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Yep--like a flint lock muzzleloader, in-line muzzleloader, single-shot rifle, semi-auto rifle, and automatic rifle are all categorized differently because of some components.Nobody seems to have a problem understanding why you can't use a semi-auto in muzzleloader season, or a full auto in any season.

If you mean why not allow them in archery season, I've answered that time and again already.

As for giving them their own season, see my first post on page 40--first paragraph.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"Nobody seems to have a problem understanding why you can't use a semi-auto in muzzleloader season, or a full auto in any season."

If you could load your semi automatic from the muzzle, in many states it would be legal....because of the definition that it is a "muzzleloader" (just like a crossbow is a "bow) The reason that full automatics are not allowed is that there is an uncontrolled burst of bullets as opposed to a slower rate of controlled (we hope anyway) shots. That puts a limit of what the weapon is capable of, notredefiningit as a weapon. Thisis no diferant than Maine having amaximum drawweight of a crossbow at 200lbs (which means that a 225lb Excalibur is illegal) It does not re-define the weapon, it puts a limit on it...

I have no issue limiting poundage on crossbows, but they are still bowhunting and the above reason does not hold up to examination...

Wyvern