Elitist attitude
02-26-2008, 08:03 PM
#51
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central Minnesota
Posts: 9,445
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Alpha Capo
SCH i edited my post above....your right everyones different for sure.
i used to like to anchor and hold for 3 to five seconds. im doing better now that irelease faster.....i know that the aim is correct from all the practice.
all the extra time at anchor, was making me second guess my training/instict
but its fun to see/hear how others do things.
SCH i edited my post above....your right everyones different for sure.
i used to like to anchor and hold for 3 to five seconds. im doing better now that irelease faster.....i know that the aim is correct from all the practice.
all the extra time at anchor, was making me second guess my training/instict
but its fun to see/hear how others do things.
I shoot much better too releasing right away, I just wish I could hold it back longer. A person can learn allot by watching other folks. The day I quit learning is the day I better call it quits!! 
02-26-2008, 08:17 PM
#52
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: Elitist attitude
OK...So...since I shoot a long bow with home made wood arrows during bow season, and my homemade 700year old design CROSSBOW during crossbow season, is my crossbow considered traditional (as in the way our forefathers did it??) and if that is the case, then my crossbow (which took a cow elk last season by the way) with no sites, wood bolts, feathers, and nothing but muscle cocking it (at 185lbs it is a bit of work mind you) is the "traditional" equivilent to a modern crossbow.
I think you are seeing my argument relating to the much more extreme modern designs but even looking at your awesome homemade crossbow I still get that twinge of not having to pull it back and hold it back at the moment of truth.
That's what separates arechery and crossbows for me.
I know of at least 3 record book animals that I screwed up by drawing to soon, or too late or not at all that would have been slam dunks with a crossbow. I watched them run off because I wasn't good enough. I still need that challenge of having to decide when to draw the string back and having to hold the bow up to make a shot.
When I am old and gray or injured I may just find myself using one in archery season because like I said it probably is the next closest thing you can get but I still will not consider it "archery" hunting. It will be doing what I have to do to still be out there enjoying that season. I'm sure I'll enjoy it just fine but I know the difference.
Everyone seems to think just because some of us don't agree that a crossbow is bowhunting or archery that we're causing some great rift in the force that is hunting in general........that's just nonsense really. It's simply another weapon and deserves it's own classification IMO. I know I'm not saying "Your evil because you want to shoot a crossbow, or want to use it in archery season" .
I just truly feel that the line in "archery" hunting is drawn vertically not horizontally and archery was never meant to be pre loaded and ready to fire by simply pulling a trigger.
I'll put it to you this way, if someone developed a device that allowed me to keep my Black Widow recurve at full draw the entire time on stand but I could release the string by hand with a homemade cedar arrow and flint broadhead I STILL would not consider that archery hunting.
That's what you're up against with me.
But regardless that hoemmade crossbow is AWESOME, and I'll grant you that's about as close as I'm going to get at softening on crossbows as comparable to archery hunting. LOL
Nice job! 
02-26-2008, 08:39 PM
#54
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central Minnesota
Posts: 9,445
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA
That's just impressive plain and simple. [:-]
I think you are seeing my argument relating to the much more extreme modern designs but even looking at your awesome homemade crossbow I still get that twinge of not having to pull it back and hold it back at the moment of truth.
That's what separates arechery and crossbows for me.
I know of at least 3 record book animals that I screwed up by drawing to soon, or too late or not at all that would have been slam dunks with a crossbow. I watched them run off because I wasn't good enough. I still need that challenge of having to decide when to draw the string back and having to hold the bow up to make a shot.
When I am old and gray or injured I may just find myself using one in archery season because like I said it probably is the next closest thing you can get but I still will not consider it "archery" hunting. It will be doing what I have to do to still be out there enjoying that season. I'm sure I'll enjoy it just fine but I know the difference.
Everyone seems to think just because some of us don't agree that a crossbow is bowhunting or archery that we're causing some great rift in the force that is hunting in general........that's just nonsense really. It's simply another weapon and deserves it's own classification IMO. I know I'm not saying "Your evil because you want to shoot a crossbow, or want to use it in archery season" .
I just truly feel that the line in "archery" hunting is drawn vertically not horizontally and archery was never meant to be pre loaded and ready to fire by simply pulling a trigger.
I'll put it to you this way, if someone developed a device that allowed me to keep my Black Widow recurve at full draw the entire time on stand but I could release the string by hand with a homemade cedar arrow and flint broadhead I STILL would not consider that archery hunting.
That's what you're up against with me.
But regardless that hoemmade crossbow is AWESOME, and I'll grant you that's about as close as I'm going to get at softening on crossbows as comparable to archery hunting. LOL Nice job!
OK...So...since I shoot a long bow with home made wood arrows during bow season, and my homemade 700year old design CROSSBOW during crossbow season, is my crossbow considered traditional (as in the way our forefathers did it??) and if that is the case, then my crossbow (which took a cow elk last season by the way) with no sites, wood bolts, feathers, and nothing but muscle cocking it (at 185lbs it is a bit of work mind you) is the "traditional" equivilent to a modern crossbow.
I think you are seeing my argument relating to the much more extreme modern designs but even looking at your awesome homemade crossbow I still get that twinge of not having to pull it back and hold it back at the moment of truth.
That's what separates arechery and crossbows for me.
I know of at least 3 record book animals that I screwed up by drawing to soon, or too late or not at all that would have been slam dunks with a crossbow. I watched them run off because I wasn't good enough. I still need that challenge of having to decide when to draw the string back and having to hold the bow up to make a shot.
When I am old and gray or injured I may just find myself using one in archery season because like I said it probably is the next closest thing you can get but I still will not consider it "archery" hunting. It will be doing what I have to do to still be out there enjoying that season. I'm sure I'll enjoy it just fine but I know the difference.
Everyone seems to think just because some of us don't agree that a crossbow is bowhunting or archery that we're causing some great rift in the force that is hunting in general........that's just nonsense really. It's simply another weapon and deserves it's own classification IMO. I know I'm not saying "Your evil because you want to shoot a crossbow, or want to use it in archery season" .
I just truly feel that the line in "archery" hunting is drawn vertically not horizontally and archery was never meant to be pre loaded and ready to fire by simply pulling a trigger.
I'll put it to you this way, if someone developed a device that allowed me to keep my Black Widow recurve at full draw the entire time on stand but I could release the string by hand with a homemade cedar arrow and flint broadhead I STILL would not consider that archery hunting.
That's what you're up against with me.
But regardless that hoemmade crossbow is AWESOME, and I'll grant you that's about as close as I'm going to get at softening on crossbows as comparable to archery hunting. LOL
Nice job!
02-26-2008, 09:03 PM
#56
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Newtonville, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,896
RE: Elitist attitude
I use a Judge release that takes just over one pound to trigger and once I'm at full draw I can hold my Vulcan in my hands with my arms straight out. So big deal! LOL! At 30 yards I can pin starlings, big deal! I can't do that with my crossbow though. Hmmm that's not fair! I was thinking about using my Holo sight on my Vulcan too........ or may be an optimizer in my Peep.
I'll say that my recurves are a challenge to hunt with and I have a feeling it will be forever. Well compared to my compounds and crossbows. I think burniegoeasily put it well. It's a personal challenge not a comparison to something or someone else. I think the pee pot is full and we are littering.
I'll say that my recurves are a challenge to hunt with and I have a feeling it will be forever. Well compared to my compounds and crossbows. I think burniegoeasily put it well. It's a personal challenge not a comparison to something or someone else. I think the pee pot is full and we are littering.
02-27-2008, 06:17 AM
#58
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Obama made me join the NRA for 5 years !
Posts: 2,181
RE: Elitist attitude
Alpha Capo machines don't shoot bows, people do. Compounds are much more accurate, thats why bowhunters for the most part use them. If you're belief in quick shooting were accurate, everyone would be using recurves. They don't, because the ability to draw and hold heavy poundage bows that are super accurate and easy to shoot far outweighs being able to snap shoot.
on crossbows let me say this - its funny how compounders will defend ALL DAY LONG that bowhunters should unite, embrace all bows for hunting, shoot whatever you want etc because that will make traditiaonalists accept the compounds. Then add crossbows into the equation and they foam at the mouth and a fight starts !
compounders want their high technology, the trigger releases, the high FPS, the fancy sights, they want as much techy stuff as they can load onto their bows to make their shooting EASIER - and they want their choices accepted by everyone too - but make it a BIT EASIER with a crossbow ? foaming at the mouth again
there is a much greater challenge there, YES !
compounds are not designed to use bare bow anymore. but no, the letoff itsself and the essentrics of the mechanics also seperate what a compound is. Its the wheels, and the breach of "drawing in the presence of game" that seperates. With a compound, you don't draw in the presence, you draw before, hold, and wait. Terribly different stuff.
TEmbry funny, thats exactly what I'm saying too, except I lump your choice of bows into the same category as crossbows.
You see, you're an elitist too. You think crossbows breaches what it and isn't archery, though truth is crossbows have been around for centuries and compounds only about 40 years. You just draw the line in one spot, me in another.
Dnk
Its something I like to discuss because it impacts our entire sport.
Do we (A) include everything or (B) draw lines in the sand ? We do (B) and WHERE those lines are is up for discussion.
And those lines change, every year.
I bet a lot of guys don't know that mechnaical releases were not allowed for decades. I bet most guys don't remember >65% letoff being illegal. I bet a lot of bowhunters don't remember mechanical heads being illegal.
Things change, and I don't remember the fights in the 60's and 70's between traditionalists and the insurgence of compounds.
Wiaxle I think it matters, yes, more and more. I think the hunting gets lost, and the killing becomes the focus and the equipment used accelerates that conversion.
more and more yes, if you want to become a bowhunter, use a recurve. if you want instance satisfaction with little dedication, practice and sense of archery, shoot a compound of crossbow. They are the shortcut to archery, the easy way to bowhunting.
I don't know anymore than giving all these shortcuts isn't the root cause of a lot of hunting's problems.
if I said the same thing and included crossbows, what say you ?
congrats Matt / PAfor joining me in our elitist attitudes ! WELCOME !
we only differ now in where the lines need drawn. right ?
look at where compounds have come, and all the technology with them. Every year rules are rewritten to allow more and more and more ...... when will it end ? At 65% letoff ? No. At mechanical releases ? No. At fibger optic sights ? No. When will it end ?
Look at this photo - check that bow out. Why didn't "we" as a hunting/bowhunting/archery community stop the advancement of technolgoy THERE ?
Matt / PA do you think you can outshoot that compound with your recurve ? 10 shots, 40 yards, what do you think the outcome would be ? What about a new Bowtech all decked out vs that compound - at 80 yards ? Results of a side by side ?
My point is, technology won't stop. The fights that split the P&Y club 35 years ago are still happening today. Why ? Technology, thats the root cause.
on crossbows let me say this - its funny how compounders will defend ALL DAY LONG that bowhunters should unite, embrace all bows for hunting, shoot whatever you want etc because that will make traditiaonalists accept the compounds. Then add crossbows into the equation and they foam at the mouth and a fight starts !
compounders want their high technology, the trigger releases, the high FPS, the fancy sights, they want as much techy stuff as they can load onto their bows to make their shooting EASIER - and they want their choices accepted by everyone too - but make it a BIT EASIER with a crossbow ? foaming at the mouth again
Are cane pole fisherman better than those who use the trusty zebco 33
Big D, by your definition, a compound shooter who uses no sights and shoots fingers is a trad shooter, correct? Is that how you distinguish the two types of hunting, no sights and shooting fingers?
Crossbows arent bowhunting, just as gun hunting isn't. They are their own type of hunting.
You see, you're an elitist too. You think crossbows breaches what it and isn't archery, though truth is crossbows have been around for centuries and compounds only about 40 years. You just draw the line in one spot, me in another.
Dnk
It is truly amazing it took this long for this kind of discussion to come about and it says alot of good things about members here.
Do we (A) include everything or (B) draw lines in the sand ? We do (B) and WHERE those lines are is up for discussion.
And those lines change, every year.
I bet a lot of guys don't know that mechnaical releases were not allowed for decades. I bet most guys don't remember >65% letoff being illegal. I bet a lot of bowhunters don't remember mechanical heads being illegal.
Things change, and I don't remember the fights in the 60's and 70's between traditionalists and the insurgence of compounds.
Does it really matter what people use hunt with a bow and arrow? Isn't the whole idea behind this type of hunting to get out into the woods and enjoy it?
Are you going to make it so that if a young person wants to get out and try archery, if they are not using a traditional type of bow they are not following the spirit of the sport? Isn't it more important to get folks out there in the woods regardless of their choice of weapon?
I don't know anymore than giving all these shortcuts isn't the root cause of a lot of hunting's problems.
You find more enjoyment hunting with a longbow, more power to you, but don't presume to lessen the way other people draw enjoyment from the sport.
I have nothing against them at all I just don't relate them to archery.
we only differ now in where the lines need drawn. right ?
By your argument of wanting to use the most efficienct tool possible for hunting .....................
Look at this photo - check that bow out. Why didn't "we" as a hunting/bowhunting/archery community stop the advancement of technolgoy THERE ?
Matt / PA do you think you can outshoot that compound with your recurve ? 10 shots, 40 yards, what do you think the outcome would be ? What about a new Bowtech all decked out vs that compound - at 80 yards ? Results of a side by side ?
My point is, technology won't stop. The fights that split the P&Y club 35 years ago are still happening today. Why ? Technology, thats the root cause.
02-27-2008, 07:15 AM
#59
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central Minnesota
Posts: 9,445
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Big Duane
My point is, technology won't stop. The fights that split the P&Y club 35 years ago are still happening today. Why ? Technology, thats the root cause.
My point is, technology won't stop. The fights that split the P&Y club 35 years ago are still happening today. Why ? Technology, thats the root cause.
02-27-2008, 07:20 AM
#60
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mississippi USA
Posts: 15,296
RE: Elitist attitude
Exactly what is your definition of "elitest"?
I don't judge a person by the weapon they choose. I've hunted with compound and trad bow, and both have advantages and disadvantages. I choose trad gear because it's what I like, not because I feel it makes me a superior hunter. No doubt I've passed on oportunities that would have been easy shots with a compound, but I've also made shots that wouldn't have been feasible with anything other than trad gear.
As far as crossbows go, the general premise is they are "primitive", but they aren't archery equipment. There's conversion kits to make a Ruger 10/22 shoot a bolt--the ammunition doesn't define the weapon though.
'Course these days the term "primitive weapons season" is pretty much a joke--even trad bows generally use high-tech materials in their construction, not to mention high tech arrows and broadheads. I won't even start on "muzzleloaders".
As I understand it, separate archery seasons were instated because of the tiny impact they had--the equipment had huge limitations compared to gun season. Not just the weapons themselves, but the number of hunters willing to put the time and money into becoming proficient enough to use a bow and arrow as a viable hunting weapon. With all the advances since, the gap is getting smaller and smaller.
Chad
I don't judge a person by the weapon they choose. I've hunted with compound and trad bow, and both have advantages and disadvantages. I choose trad gear because it's what I like, not because I feel it makes me a superior hunter. No doubt I've passed on oportunities that would have been easy shots with a compound, but I've also made shots that wouldn't have been feasible with anything other than trad gear.
As far as crossbows go, the general premise is they are "primitive", but they aren't archery equipment. There's conversion kits to make a Ruger 10/22 shoot a bolt--the ammunition doesn't define the weapon though.
'Course these days the term "primitive weapons season" is pretty much a joke--even trad bows generally use high-tech materials in their construction, not to mention high tech arrows and broadheads. I won't even start on "muzzleloaders".
As I understand it, separate archery seasons were instated because of the tiny impact they had--the equipment had huge limitations compared to gun season. Not just the weapons themselves, but the number of hunters willing to put the time and money into becoming proficient enough to use a bow and arrow as a viable hunting weapon. With all the advances since, the gap is getting smaller and smaller.
Chad