<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>KE goes up with velocity, but I think penetration would be more curvlinear than linear. In otherwords, ALL else being the same as you add speed, you will start to see a progressive increase in penetration, not linear. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I agree with you totally.

Lets examine this scenario as shaft weight is concerned and get opinions from the gallery:

A pine needle in a tornado will often reach speeds of over 200 mph. These 5 gr(if that) pine needles are driven into the bark of trees up to 2 inches deep in some cases. IF my math is correct(probably isn't) the pine needles would only be traveling around 293 fps(in the 200 mph example). That would give the pine needle a KE of 1 ft pound. The only thing the pine needle has going for it is speed. It seems to me that is natures way of telling us all to just lighten up. I also saw the same thing happen with a drinking straw one day.

How much of a role would it appear that momentum and KE play in this scenario? How much or a role does it appear that speed plays here? Would it be safe to say that speed was all it took to get the job done?

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

Edited by - silentassassin on 08/23/2002 07:58:35

Arthur,
I agree that in your analogy there is a point of diminishing returns.
If we start with my set-up of 62 pounds and 29 inch draw. My 540 grain arrows shoot at 208 fps. If I decrease arrow weight in 20 grain incriments I would increase KE to a point and then I agree with you that is would decrease.

My point to Stealth was that changing arrow weight without any other changes would increase arrow speed.

I think we are in agreement though about hunting rigs.
Quite, relativly slow and heavy


Greg

&quot;Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus.&quot;
Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!

Edited by - amosgreg on 08/23/2002 08:05:23

I've lived in tornado alley my whole life and have seen some pretty incredible things, including the pine needle in the bark thing. Well, actually a piece of straw stuck in a phone pole. Pretty impressive until you look at the next phone pole and see a 2x4 stuck clean thru it.

Even assuming that pine needle did arrive with enough force to bury itself 2&quot; deep in tree bark, have you compared the sectional density and frontal area of a pine needle vs an ACC fronted with a 100 gn Muzzy?

I do agree that KE goes up with velocity IF, and only if, you maintain the same weight and mass. Crank up the bow's draw weight, take energy robbing doodads off the string, make sure the bow is clean, well tuned and well lubed and do all you can to make it operate flawlessly.


Edited by - Arthur P on 08/23/2002 08:23:45

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I've lived in tornado alley my whole life and have seen some pretty incredible things, including the pine needle in the bark thing. Well, actually a piece of straw stuck in a phone pole. Pretty impressive until you look at the next phone pole and see a 2x4 stuck clean thru it. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The one thing that stays the same in your scenario and mine is the speed at which they are propelled. If I could shoot 2X4s from my bow and still get 290fps then I would. I would just prefer getting hit with a softball doing 5 mph to a pine needle doing 200 mph.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

I'd be more concerned about getting hit with wind at 290 fps, cuz I don't want to be the next object of curiosity stuck thru a phone pole.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Like HuntingBry, I'm totally enjoying this topic and truly LMAO with the &quot;sideshow&quot;!! Here's my anology for you Arthur AND BobCo19-65: Ever see the show where Patrick Swazye is the return to earth ghost,.... and the scene where he's trying to warn his wife of his friend putting moves on her,...but no one can &quot;see&quot; or hear him? Well,.....all I can say is that's what popped into my head!! Follow me??!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Twang, you may have to explain this to me a little as well. Maybe I'm just a little dense.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

At least that's what my wife tells me when I get into one of my selective hearing modes!!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 08/23/2002 09:23:48

OK, this is more of a question than difference of opinion. Wouldn't the pine needle/2 by 4 in a tornado example be skewed? Like Greg said earlier and arrow begins losing energy immediately after it leaves the string. The pine needle and 2 by 4 would not be losing energy because there is a constant force propelling it (the dang tornado). If that force were to suddenly cease, which do you think would travel farther?

The point is the potential for penetration they both have while going that speed. We are not trying to compare bows to tornados. It doesn't matter why it is going that fast just that it is going that fast and how much it weighs. While we are on the subject though I believe you will find that heavy arrows will lose speed faster proportionally than a lighter one. Take your chrono and shoot through it with a light setup @ 6ft and then try it at 30 yards and then do the same with a heavy setup and see which one loses more speed. I have always found the heavier arrow to lose more speed. Besides all that matters in the scenario is the speed of the object and it's weight, the wind isn't driving it like a hammer would a nail into the wood it simply propels it.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

Edited by - silentassassin on 08/23/2002 09:22:41

The 2X4 has a lot more energy and momentum to help it overcome wind resistance. Assuming both the board and the pine needle maintained stable, end-on flight, the board would go on a good long way while the pine needle would lose speed very fast and drop to the ground.

That is why I disagree that the (reasonably) heavy arrow would lose a proportionally greater amount of it's speed and energy than a light arrow. If you've found otherwise, Silentassassin, then other factors are coming into play.

Edited by - Arthur P on 08/23/2002 09:29:40

Silentassasin

If you look at Siskyou's post. He chrono'd arrows from 0 to 70 yds. The heavier arrows actually retained a higher percentage of their speed than did the lighter. I'm not a physiscs major but I would assume that is due to momentum.