Thanks,Arthur.

One more way that you can possibly get a reading of higher ke is if the heavy arrow was way overspined and kicked bad out of the bow and the light arrow was perfectly spined but even then it would be hard to get enough of a change.That really goes back to the tune of the bow.

By the way, I had the old style Command Cams on the first compound I bought after my last fling with stickbows. A Hoyt Raider Intruder (practically the same exact bow as the Reflex Bighorn). I was shooting light and fast with it, 420 grain GoldTips at 70 pounds, right around 285 fps. Really liked the way it shot, but it was a 32&quot; draw bow and I never got comfortable with it. Felt like trying to shove my size 15 tootsies into size 12 cowboy boots, if ya know what I mean.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I thought about going with the Command Cams + with this ProTec, but my gut feeling was the Accuwheels would be the cat's arse for shooting fingers. They are.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Bowfanatic,you are definately in the minority.Most anyone that has used carbon on game will attest to the penetrating avnantages.The ones that havn't had good results were most likely due to a poorly built arrow or poorly tuned bow.


I am going to disagree that you can gain ke at the bow by going to a lighter arrow.If the arrows are tuned at both weights and the poundage isn't changed(or draw length) then a light arrow will not gain enough fps to increase ke.It just isn't possible,unless there is a tune issue.Maybe fletching contact issues or something that is off on the bow.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>


I dont think I'm in the minority when I say there is no proof that carbon penetrates game better than alluminum with a well placed shot. I'm currently shooting Beman ICS hunters. Last year I shot XX78's in the early season and GT 5575's for second season. My kinetic energy between the two was a wash , but both were complete pass throughs on does. Should I have measured how far each one stuck in the ground?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Thats the point I'm trying to make. With a properly setup and spined arrow , with a properly tuned bow , either will penetrate game effectively.
Lets talk about non pass throughs. I have hit deer in the shoulder blade with alluminums and carbons. Recovered them all , and neither arrow penetrated better from what I could tell and all of them busted.
I think the best test for penetration I've seen is on hogs. If I remember right , I think there was an article somewhere that talked about penetration on hogs between a 65lb compound bow with carbon arrows and a 45lb or 55lb (not sure which) recurve shooting cedar shafts and the recurve out penetrated every time.

Just so you dont think I'm a liar about increasing my kinetic energy by going to a lighter carbon arrow and gaining speed without changing anything else , I'll see if I can dig up the math , I keep records of all setup changes , and dont expect much , the last time I think I gained like 2 lbs of kinetic energy.

You were right TFOX! I cheated , according to your scenario. I dropped 109 gns of arrow weight and went from 65lbs KE to 67lbs KE , but it looks like I had other help. I gained 35fps by dropping everything but the loop from my string and going from a whisker biscuit to the NAP drop away. That wouldn't be a fair test , I stand corrected<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> Had I gone strictly by dropping 109 gns of arrow weight , I only would have gained 22fps which would have dropped my KE to around 61ftlbs.

NOT to stir the pot, but who else noticed that velocity went up faster below 350 gns?
How many arrows were tested below 350gns? below 400gns?
This means on this bow once you get below 350gns, the KE losses would either reduce, or REVERSE!
Again, the KE measurements for the first chart were done with one bow. As has been mentioned, some bows work better with certain set-ups. (i.e. long bow and heavy arrows, VS cam bow and light ones. long bow doesn't work well shooting light, cam bow does).
The ONLY issues he addressed, was KE vs. Momentum...NOT velocity. It can be argued that velocity DOES play a part if you believe KE is more important than momentum. as momentum is weight times velocity, and KE is weight times velocity squared (then adjusted by a number to give relevant measurments

Here is a chart from another test on the same subject....notice penetration went UP with the faster arrow with less KE.
NOT by much...more importantly, it DID NOT DROPwith lighter arrows and LESS KE.
If anyone wants the rest of the article posted, lemme know. Otherwise I'll save the energy (sorry...bad pun )

This all said, I WILL agree that KE is the MAJOR factor in penetration......but not the only. Velocity MUST be added to the equasion.

Edited by - Stealth_Force on 08/22/2002 01:27:01

Stealth_Force quote
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>This all said, I WILL agree that KE is the MAJOR factor in penetration......but not the only. Velocity MUST be added to the equasion.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Question- How &quot;MUST Velocity be added to the equasion&quot; when velocity is a component of the equasion?
Ke = Weight in grains x Velociy in Feet per second squared / 450240
(equasion for the Norb article)

Not an flame, just trying to figure out this statement and what you mean by it.



Greg

&quot;Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus.&quot;

Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Reading comprehension<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Don't worry you will get better at it with practice, just keep on trying.


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Both speed and weight have their place in archery , choose which you want , but dont say those that dont choose your way are wrong. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Exactly!!!!! I have said that all along.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> However , the point I was trying to make to silentassassin was , he gains his kinetic energy by going with the speed , to make up for the low poundage he shoots.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

The point was that to listen to all of you heavy arrow buffs there is never a time when a light arrow is better than a heavy one. It is all a matter of trade off. Will you trade 25 fps or 10% of your speed for 1 foot pound or 0.0147% of your KE. I personally will not. I was just pointing out to you the reversal in logic or lack there of, which I now see that you have recanted due to your having faith in a phenomenon that existed only in your mathematical calulations.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

Edited by - silentassassin on 08/22/2002 08:05:27

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>TFOX is right. If you look at Mullaney's bow test reports, he always charts out arrow weight, speed, KE and efficiency for a lot of different arrow weights. I've followed his reports for years and in EVERY case, as arrow weight drops, speed increases, KE decreases and efficiency decreases. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Hummmm that's interesting. So a 40lb bow is more efficeint and has a higher KE with a 700 gr. arrow than it than it would be with a 300 gr. arrow even though I could probably catch the 700gr. arrow with my bare hands. I doubt seriously that this is actually the case. You can get to a weight where the bow is not as efficient or that the bow does not possess the necessary stored energy to move the arrow efficiently.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

&quot;So a 40lb bow is more efficeint and has a higher KE with a 700 gr. arrow than it than it would be with a 300 gr. arrow&quot;

I suggest you go back and read a few more posts before trying to put words in my mouth again, Silentassassin. That has already been dealt with.

The point with heavy arrows is NOT KE. It is momentum. I posted this in response to TFOX w-a-y back there before you joined the discussion:

&quot;I could use a 400 grain arrow and still get the same amount of momentum as I get with my 2315's @ 220 fps but I'd have to jack that 400 grainer up to around 340 fps for some 103 ft lbs of energy to do it.&quot;

You gain momentum at a heckuvalot faster rate than KE with weight.

Within typical bowhunting yardages of 30 yards and less, I don't see an inch or so flatter trajectory to be enough of a benefit to shoot much more speed than what I'm shooting now. Certainly not enough to drop any energy or momentum from what I'm getting or submitting my bow to the extra strain of shooting light arrows.

Edited by - Arthur P on 08/22/2002 08:53:50

I have been sitting back and following this post for quite some time and I have learned a lot, gotten confused by some of the math, and been thoroughly entertained by the Silentassassin vs. ArthurP (and company) banter. You two remind me of football where there are two quarterbacks fighting for a position. The grizzled veteren with the military haircut that stays in the pocket and lobs passes to his receivers with remarkable precision picking his way toward a touchdown and the flashy kid out of college with his sunglasses and gold teeth who can't wait for his receivers to get open so he takes off himself screaming down the field juking linebackers all the way to the end zone where he does his celebration dance.
Believe it or not this analogy does have something to do with the topic at hand. My contention is that with a slower set up (round wheels, soft cams, traditional gear) and longer draw lengths you are better off with heavier arrows that will store more of the limited energy that you have. Arthur, let's face it you won't be straining your round wheel bow too much with lighter arrows. On the other hand, with a setup designed for speed and shorter draw lengths, which includes many of today's bows, you are better off with lighter arrows that will translate much of that stored energy into speed and create high amounts of KE with the higher fps. Silentassassin, your setup falls into this category (as does mine since our setups are almost identical), but would you be willing to use that setup to hunt cape buffalo in Africa? I know I wouldn't, but I wouldn't want that slow log flinging setup either.
Bottom line is each arrow application has its place with different setups and different archers.