walks with a gimp

Nope,,, not thinnin' the BowTech herd in this household I've got 7 grand kids to pass then on to and I'm surely not giving up my '03 Pat DC!!! I like the '03 Pat DC VERY much and feel that a used one would be well worth what ever it takes to buy one if you're looking Lots of energy and speed with forgivness to go with out of the '03 model!!! Check E-Bay soon for '03 and '04 models when the '05's hit the dealers

Pinwheel 12

JeffB-

Thanks for your fair assessment of the Max X.

Jmac-

Thanks for your input---this is how all manufacturers produce better equipment.

Now-

The R2 cams offer the same relative speeds as the Omega cam system if utilizing the target modules, which much like the Omega produce the smooth draw that everyone wants in a hunting bow. Sure we could slap the Turbo mods on them and beef up the speed by 15fps, but in a hunting bow, high speed means squat to anyone except the younguns who like to see it go thru a chrono or those who are trying to take down antelope at 80 yds and need a tighter hit window---everyone else knows that you ALWAYS give to get when it comes to speed, I played that game myself when I was younger and yep, it takes awhile to figure it out, but eventually most everyone does as they get older. The Max X produces more-than-adequate speed and KE for a bow with over 8" of brace height, BTW.

So, we decided to offer the smooth draw that everyone wanted, while still maintaining excellent geometry, brace height, and shootability/accuracy needed for definitive arrow placement under stressful hunting conditions. We personally feel we hit the goal with the Max X, and it certainly does exactly what it was designed to do.

Now, Merlin does keep their ears open to customers' wants/needs, so you never know what may pop up in the future lineup!

Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

500 fps

Jmac,

I have an 03 Pat Dually I'm trying to get rid of. It's not exactly stock, but is in brand new condition with new WC strings. Since the 03 draw lengths were way too long (over 1"), and I didn't want to give up any speed, I got some 1" shorter limbs and correct length new strings, and swapped everything out. So now it has 1" shorter a to a, 1" shorter BH, and the draw length was shortened by about 1" also, so the 30" modules draw a true 30". I haven't cronied it in a while,and I can't remeber the speeds I got, but I do remeber I was pretty happy (no small task). I don't currently have the bow because I loaned it to someone whose was stolen, but they decided on an o4 Pro 40 dually, so it is available and hasn't seen much use at all; either before or after the swap.
I can get it back if it sounds like something you'd be interested in. If you need any additional details, just PM me.

jmac_or

PW12,
As I have stated before, I think the Max is a GREAT hunting bow, about as good as it gets. I am getting ready to become a 2 bow owner, so I need something different. I am thinking a fun, fast bow is in order. There is a place for a little added speed, but I agree, not in hunting. Stacking broadheads at 30 and 40 yards is where it is at in the woods (mountains in my case).

Nice how you *hint*hint* there. I think a smooth shooting speed bow from Merlin would be a ton of fun for 3D. Don't know if I can afford another brand new, high end bow, but we will have to see.

JMAC

silentassassin

Pinwheel,

I agree with you now and did so then. If you can improve in an area then by all means do so. I believe there are some negative side effects of poor nock travel and if it can be improved upon then by all means it should be done. I was really pointing out the basis of the arguments that were made and the fact that while it is an improvment it is not the "holy grail".


Len,

I don't think I have it confused. I used target archery as a readily recognizable benchmark. But again, I have been shooting bows with poor nock travel for years and blowing through deer and stacking some pretty good broadhead groups also. I think that sometimes we have a tendancy over analyze and over sensationalize archery equipment. I do think improved nock travel is plus. However, several million deer have been killed with bows with piss poor nock travel. So again I just don't see it as the "holy grail". Your statement does raise a couple of questions though. If level nock travel is the new "sliced bread" wouldn't it's benefits be readily seen in the local archery tournaments or broadhead leagues etc. If not where do you see the benefits of the new system. My point is that they have been portrayed as vastly superior. In which case one would assume that the benefits would be readily recognizable. I have not seen this nor heard the magnitudes to be professing their absolute superiority either on the hunting end or the target end. So if they are vastly superior where can the novice go to see the results and if they aren't vastly superior what's all the fuss about. IMO they are just like any other cam system. If you set them up right and tune them well then they will shoot broadheads or field points as well as the shooter can. One would still think if they offer so many benefits that some of these would spill over to field tipped arrows though and the benefits could also be seen on the tournament end. Again, I am not arguing the validity of having better nock travel but rather how superior it truely is. I just tend to think some people are claiming a mountain out of a mole hill of improvement. That doesn't mean I don't think the improvment shouldn't be made but rather the improvement is not significant enough for us to forego all other designs and throw down the bows we are currently shooting in shame and disgust.

Len in Maryland

SA: I guess I'd better reiterate what I said because you REALLY read a lot into a paragraph!

Quote:

I think that SA and others continually confuse tournament accuracy with hunting effectiveness/efficiency. I find many of my new customers complaining about fixed BH flight and penetration. Their field tip shooting is VERY accurate, but many won't shoot fixed BHs because of inconsistency. They also wonder why they're not getting the penetration that they used to get with some of their old bows.

I give them lenghty explanations for both of these complaints.

I didn't categorize what bows would or wouldn't perform. Yet you seem to want to imply that I'm knocking designs. What I stated was facts pertinent to concerns by my customers, and how many of them blindly follow a segment of our sport that has categorical differences in application/design requirements/results.

What you're missing is "I give them lenghty explanations for both of these complaints." You don't have a clue about the "lengthy explanations" and subsequently seem to guess as to what they are.

I have never used or eluded to the terms "holy grail" or "sliced bread". If you think that for one minute that I would deem/portray any design as "vastly superior", you're wrong again about me. There is far more to this subject of cam design than what I'd be willing to discuss. After all, didn't I make myself clear in my first post on this thread when I stated:

Quote:

I am very intrigued about the new Equalizer cam. I've had it explained to me in detail and have an order in for whatever comes off the production line first. They know that I'll test it immediately on my APPLE machine and that I will tear it apart and try to make it fail. They're still willing to sell me some units; therefore, they may just have something there.

If you care to check with the Executives that were with Browning several years ago, I was extremely anxious to try out their new 'Zero Cam'. The initial design was nothing like what anyone expected; but, there was optimism by many, including yours truly.

You've evidently confused me with someone who has a definite mindset about any product. You may have missed the key word in one sentence in my last post. It was "...but many won't shoot fixed BHs because of inconsistency." The key word is MANY. If you don't have any problems, that's great and enjoy your equipment.

You would have to be the one to qualify the "significance" that you're looking for between products/designs. Sometimes the "significance" is a multitude of small issues that have a cumulative effect.

silentassassin

Len,

I think you need to step back and take a couple of deep breaths. The subject that I was discussing and that you accused me of being confused about did involve a particular type of equipment. Also, I didn't make any type of speculation about the conversations that you have with your customers. If you took it that way then you read the wrong thing into what I was saying. Also, I didn't accuse you of using or implying the terms holy grail or sliced bread. Those were my terms. It seems that sometimes people try to portray that these terms do apply. However, if you assumed that I was implying that you were one of these people then you again read to much into my post which ironically enough is exactly what you accused me of

Straightarrow

I think this is a pretty key statement to what many of us experience. This year, I'm shooting a hybrid cam bow. I'm not sure how straight the nock travel is, because there's quite a bit of cam lean, but it still shoots good. I was assuming that this was going to make a difference in broadhead flight. It may have, but it wasn't noticable. However, my experimentation with spine testing appears to have paid much higher dividends as did my decision to switch to shooting helical feathers a few years back.

The cumulative effects of cutting off both ends of my arrows when cutting them to length, spine testing my arrows, shooting helical feathers, increasing F.O.C., and switching to a hybrid cam seem to have added up to significantly better broadhead flight. However, I do have to place credit for most of the gain on arrow adjustments, because they fly just as good out of a single cam I tested them on.

I seem to be always making adjustments and experimenting. It becomes difficult to know how much any one improvement contributed to any gains I find. This year, I went to a heavier bow with a longer ATA, revamped arrows and a new broadhead. For a person, like myself, most bows seems to work quite well. I suppose to test the forgiveness factor of any one of these features, you'd have to test them on an out-of-tune bow or shoot weakly spined arrows with straight fletch and low F.O.C.. This something I'm not all that interested in doing.

I guess what I'm saying, is that a hybrid cam may be a good choice for novice and an inconsequential one for those experienced in tuning their equipememt.