G2 Shooter

All right, time to open another can of worms. First I will state what I know about arrow spine and then I will ask the question. I could have it totally wrong which is why I am posting this thread so try not to beat me up too much.

In the days of longbows, recurves and old compounds that did not have a cut out riser, the job of the arrow's spine was to allow the arrow to bend away from the riser to allow fletching clearance. Choosing the right spline was tricky. Too little and the arrow wobbled. never correcting itself. Too much and the fletching would hit the riser and give the same results. Get it just right and the arrow would bend just enough to clear the fletching but not so much that it couldn't correct itself in flight. That is how I understand it.

The question is, with todays compound bows that have generous cutouts in the risers, can an arrow be too stiff? The riser has enough fletching clearance so that if an arrow is setup to have a TRUE centershot, they should not contact the riser. With that being said, wouldn't a stiffer arrow shoot straighter because it doesn't bend when the bow transfers it's energy to it?

Let the debate begin!

Bigpapascout

OK Ill bite first since I am laid up with a bad back and cant hunt today[:@]

it is not as much the type of bow as to how the arrow is released .
a finger shooter creates what is called a paradox by how the string is rolled off the fingers if the arrow does not have a certain amount of flex the arrow is going to go in the direction of the string causing eratic arrow flight

shooters who use a loop and release directly behind the arrow the paradox has been eleminated thus allowing the archer to use as stiff of an arrow he/she can find

in some applications a properly spined arrow is required
in others the stiffer the better.

TFOX

ABSOLUTELY YES,an arrow can be too stiff ,even when shot out of the compounds of today with loops and releases.


The arrow has to absorb the energy that the bow inserts into it so it will stabilize and fly straight without any side motion to it.When an arrow is to weak it can't absorb the energy but rather it will have more than it can handle and will be kicking back and forth wildly.


If an arrow is too stiff it will not absorb the energy the bow puts out and will kick to the side and will cause some problems with arrow flight and broadhead accuracy.


Now,it is absolutely true that you have more room for error with a stiff spine than you do with a weak spine.So it is a good idea to stay on the stiff side when choosing arrows and you can even go 2-3 spine sizes up but you will most likely not be able to go down on spine more than 1 size.


If you can't be too stiff then they would only need to make a really stiff arrow for everyone.

bowtechshooter86

I would listen to TFOX. i remember TFOX answering many of my questions when i was younger and went by the name Ky_bowhunter. By the way....thanks TFOX for all your information a few years ago helping me get started in bowhunting. It was very much appreciated.

DaveC

Hmm, TFOX that sounds what could be happening with my patriot. The arrows kick out wildly and rely on the fletching to correct before reaching the target. I couldn't get my phantoms to shoot and settled in with great groups from Stngers and Slicktricks.


SO...... does a 28.5" Beman black ICS 340 w/ a 100 grain tip,4" vanes (418 total) sound to stiff for an 04 Patriot SC pulling 29" draw at 65#??

I do have some 29" Easton 400's I could whirl for comparison.

Thx for the help.

Bigpapascout

arrows with higher spine ratios will absorb more enregy that is being generated from the bow to the string to the arrow, if a super stiff arrow looses energy from a bow that is shot from a release and a in line loop is due to an improper tuned bow
the only way a stiff arrow will not shoot strait in line is due to the arrow being off the center line of the bow string, not in line vertically with the travel of the nock or the shooter torquing the bow or a combination of the 3.


you are contradicting your own statement you first said that you can absolutley be over spined then said that it is better to shoot a stiffer arrow

lighter arrows have weaker spine ratios, like I said before some applications need a properly spined arrow.

some bows with a hard draw force curve cam require stiff arrows


someone who is shooting a properly tuned bow shooting off a loop directly behind the arrow can shoot stiffer arrows and achieve perfect arrow flight.
if a person is shooting a stiff arrow off a loop and is experiencing poor flight it is more than likely the bow is not properly tuned or their form needs work, bottom line.

you can listen to whoever you want to it makes no difference to me
but as far as your arrows are concerned they are fine for what you are shooting
I would be more concerned whether youre set up is properly tuned make sure you arent getting any fletch contact making sure your rest spring tension is not too stiff or if you are using a fallaway make sure it is falling quickly.
if you havent paper tested your set up I suggest you do so to make sure the arrow is coming off the bow string strait.

If you are torquing the grip I suggest buying a bow sling and learn to shoot with an open hand to eleminate any torque you may be putting on the grip.

Techy

I am not near my chart, but I think ICS 400's are about perfect with that setup.

340's will work though, just slower.

TFOX

bigpapascout,

When an arrow is too stiff it isn't able to absorb the energy because it has leftover spine.The arrow will kick to the right for right handed shooters,just check the Easton tuning quides.I think they know a thing or two about arrows,bows,and tuning.


It is true that you can get an overspine arrow to shoot straight but usually at the expense of centershot.


I am not contradicting myself but rather giving tolerances for reference.You can't go 10 sizes up on the spine chart and expect a bow and arrow setup to tune very well.On the otherhand,you can go 1-3 sizes up and still achieve a decent tune.Broadheads require a slightly stiffer spine setup than a field point but you are not overspining, you are getting the proper spine.Basically,there is more room for error to the stiff side than there is to the light side.


Yes, hard cam setups require stiffer spines than soft cams but you are not overspining ,you are getting the proper spined arrow.



Dave,your setup seems to be at the breakover point between 340 and 400 so it is a good idea to stay on the safe side(stiff) with your setup.You should be able play around with 125 gr points to see if you like them better.That will weaken the dynamic spine a bit and MAY make a difference in the way the arrows perform for you.My honest opinion is that the arrows are ok but rather a tuning problem is to blame.Or the nut behind the string.


BT shooter not a problem,I enjoy helping when I can.I haven't been posting much lately because I have just been too busy with the kids and such.

TFOX

For the record,the charts have been known to be off.I use Archers Advantage to get my spine and have had the tuning process simplified beyond belief, when you know the arrow is perfect.



Both my hunting and target bows shoot almost too good through paper,after GROUP TUNING IN THE YARD,I get bulletholes at 3,6 and 20 feet with both.I have always heard it is better to have a slight tear but for me,it isn't the case.Atleast it doesn't seem to be at this point.It would be better to have a slight tear if your arrow is too stiff,rather than compromise centershot with your rest.

Bigpapascout

are you trying to tell me that a 7595 GT cannot absorb most of the bows energy from a 60#bow?

shoot a 5575 then a 7595 then come back and tell me which arrow quietened the bow down more!

never mind I can tell you right here and now that the stiffer heavier arrow will absorb more of the bows energy thus reducing noise and viberation more than that of the weaker lighter arrow.
I can also guarantee you that it will shoot perfectly with a proper tune on the bow with the rest dead center of the center line of the string!

easton tuning guide is not the holy grail of how to properly tune a bow but it will give you a place to start




only easton aluminum shafts has that many spine to weight variables most carbons only have 5 different spine to weight ratios
so how do you go up 10 sizes?
my son shoots CR 5575 cut down to 26" out of a 40# bow and they fly strait (minus trajectory) and true out to 40 yds and his bow is properly set up and will shoot a perfect bullet hole thru paper but according to your theroy it should be punching nasty nock left tears thru paper? maybe you would like to explain this phenemenon so that I may better understand it according to you and the easton charts this is impossible.




((((((HELLOOOO)))))) you are starting to get it!