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The tuning trilogy!
TUNE the BOW...TUNE the ARROW...TUNE the ARCHER.
If you don' t know how to do each of these phases, choice of broadhead doesn' t matter as much. Addressing all three phases will assure effective delivery of the projectile to point-of-impact. If you miss one of the phases, you will definitely affect the entire process. I had a customer in just yesterday who had his bow tuned by my shop. He had also been given instruction (tune the archer) by me personally. What he failed to do was check out/tune his arrows properly before cresting them and making them look pretty for hunting. The arrows were NOT tuned properly and some subsequently missed the entire broadhead target when fitted with fixed broadheads. For those who will raise the question, he did not ask us to tune/select his arrows for broadhead use. This is a very costly process because it is time consuming. Customers can do this process, if they know the procedure and have the tools. Generally, carbon arrows have to be checked much more closely than aluminum arrows, IMPO.[:o] While tuning the bow and arrows can be a major task, tuning the archer (especially a veteran) can be most troublesome. ;) |
RE: The tuning trilogy!
carbon arrows have to be checked much more closely than aluminum arrows, |
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Len what was wrong with his arrows , spine , fletch contact , inserts, nocks , . Let us know . Tuning the archer is another storie , I cant seem to get my mind right , least thats what pepole around me say , but hey maybe its them that are twisted ;)
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RE: The tuning trilogy!
I am haveing a arrow tuning problem right now. Could you expand a little please. I have always hunted with a 125 grain broad head. I have swithced to a 100 grain. I like how the arrows shoot a little quicker (not sure how much, I havent cronagraphed them yet) but appears to fly flater and quicker. My only problem Is I keep getting a right tear with paper now.
I posted this question here earlier (100 vs 125 grains) any help is appreaciated. I live in the sticks and our loacal bow shop is over 120 miles away. I pretty much have to teach myself and rely on folks like you for advice. :D |
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Bernie what is your set up? Most likely your arrows are now a litle stiff because lowering the point weight increases the arrow spine.Easton has a PDF tuning guide you can download and print.Very good info.Len what is your preffered method for broadhead arrow tuning?
CB |
RE: The tuning trilogy!
bernie, you probably gained up to 5 fps at most. If it keeps givin you fits, go back to 125...
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RE: The tuning trilogy!
Cajun
I am shoting an older model hoyt (exel) at 63lbs. My shafts are carbon express 6075s that are 310grains at my length. I use a release, loop, and drop away rest. I am going to down load the chart you mentioned, It will probably give me the answer to my spin delima. Thanks for the info.:D |
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Nub: The ACC' s fall into the better category. But, depending on ' your' acceptability criteria, can still be low yield. My ACC usage on an elk trip yielded only 9 out of 24 arrows that were acceptable by me; but, my standards are VERY high. You get what you pay for is still a good cliche.
ijimmy: This customer' s arrows were NOT completely straight. As I usually find, the ends (last 2" of the arrows), possibly due to cutting, were up to .030 out. burniegoeasily: Sorry, I don' t get into trying to diagnose tuning problems on the internet. CAJUNBOWHNTR: Getting the BH' s to hit where the field tips hit is my acceptance criteria. |
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Len, good to see your posts. I would like to know what your acceptable standards for a good tuned shooter/bow /arrow combination for hunting would be. I know your personal standards for yourself would probably be higher due to experience but I mean the average Joe Blow. Myself for example last year I worked to get my fieldtips, bare shaft , and at least 2 or 3 different brand fixed blade broadheads to shoot into the same group at a minimum of 30 yards. I acomplished this goal even though I am not the best shot in the world partly due to some physical limitations and my groups with this randomly shot combination of arrows was about 3 1/2 inches at 30 yards. This year I plan to have these same results out to 40 yards. I have not started with broadheads yet, but yesterday I was shooting at a spot on my target butt at 40 yards and had shot 3 field tips at that distance and decided to shoot the bare shaft into the group to confirm tune. I then shot 2 more fieldtips into the group, and when I went down to pull them they were in a group about 3 1/2" on and around the spot I was shooting at with the bareshaft straight in the center of the group. Im I on the right track?
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8PT: You' re definitely doing it correctly. What I find acceptable is not an issue and shouldn' t be a consideration for anyone. Establishing where you are, setting goals, achieving those goals, and then establishing new goals is commendable.
You' re shooting very well and good luck in your future endeavors.;) |
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.030" wow thats like a mile for arrows . Care to mention the brand name ?
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The guilt is widespread and is usually in the less expensive wrapped carbons. I have seen some of the ' better' carbons as much .015 out. It also varies from batch to batch. In some cases I' ve seen some of the less expensive arrows better than ACCs in this matter.
This is why I tell my customers to always check their arrows on the spin tools we have located around the shop. I have customers who want to ' select' all the straight arrows before they purchase a dozen. This I will not allow them to do because ' I' don' t even do this for myself. I accept the ' not so straight' arrows for what they are and only use them for FT practice. If I were to allow this, I feel that I would be doing a disservice to all my other customers, because their yield would definitely go down. |
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Excellent post as always LEN in Maryland. That criteria or lack thereof is the biggest strike against fixed blade broadheads and why mechanicals are such a craze. As you know, there is no excuse for people complaining about fixed blade broadheads not being accurate. It' s usually never the broadheads problem but the shooter and his equipment(bow and arrows). Most people are either too ignorant or just too pig headed to time the time, expense to figure that out thusly taking a shortcut and using mechanicals. Now before everyone starts the bashing, I' m not classifying everyone into this catagory. I know there are many exceptional archers, in form and knowledge that still use mechanicals with exceptionally tuned equipment by choice.
But I digress....excellent post LEN. |
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Len, besides ACC' s which brand/s of shafts do you recommend?
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Since the problem occurs moreso from batch to batch, and since it occurs with most manufacturers, it would be foolish of me to specify anyone.
Checking and taking the time to properly tune your arrows is the best advice I can give. |
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Len, another question I left out. Do use use some method to determin the stiff side of the spine on shafts (carbon in particular) and align the cock fletch accordingly? If so, how do you go about it? I have learned a simple and quick method for doing this and it seems to make a noticable difference in group size and number and extent of flyers. All of the limited brands and model shafts I have checked have shown a stiff and weaker side to some extent.
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For hunting situations, I don' t worry as much about the " stiff" side of an arrow. This will show itself in the tuning process and will be eliminated/pushed to the practice mode. With hunting arrows, I want them to be as good as they can get when penetrating. If not, you may get an arrow ' bending' during the penetration process and subsequently loose penetration, or take a different course through, or break within.
If you want to use a ' weak sided' arrow for practice, turning the nock until you get good flight is often the answer. You must also realize that this phenomenom may be the result of a very slight bend in an arrow. Any arc along the arrow' s length will result in a favorable ' bend' during launch. Some find that floating the arrow will show the bend/stiff side of an arrow. I find that shooting and evaluating the results with various methods gives me the best results/confidence. Please share your " quick and simple" method.;) |
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For hunting situations, I don' t worry as much about the " stiff" side of an arrow. This will show itself in the tuning process and will be eliminated/pushed to the practice mode. I accept the ' not so straight' arrows for what they are and only use them for FT practice. |
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I have customers who want to ' select' all the straight arrows before they purchase a dozen. This I will not allow them to do because ' I' don' t even do this for myself. I accept the ' not so straight' arrows for what they are and only use them for FT practice. If I were to allow this, I feel that I would be doing a disservice to all my other customers, because their yield would definitely go down. If we meekly accept getting 5-8 useable arrows out of a dozen, aren' t we pretty much encouraging the manufacturers to keep screwing us? If we don' t demand higher quality then we aren' t going to get higher quality. |
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I am with Art on the " I expect to get what I paid for" issue. I too do not want to climb Len' s case, but he said it, not I. I am amazed that a dealer would openly say that he would not allow a customer to assure they are getting what they are about to pay for. Now if he were to advertise that the arrows were a " grab-bag," that you may not get but a few straight arrows, and then adjust the cost accordingly, that would be acceptable. But not when a product is claimed to be what you may not get when you still will pay market price. I am also surprised that he would find it ok and suggest that a person " ….practice with not so straight arrows." Practice with deficient arrows for what? For the hell of it or to hunt with? Either way is not the shooter tuning his or her bow and self with those deficient arrows? Moreover, what is this " disservice to other customers" bit. How would my expecting to get what I need and pay for be doing a disservice to others? As for the equality of the yield going down; getting what you pay for is not the same as distributing rice in Ethiopia. |
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I' m actually more surprised that the companies are not expected to sell their items within their advertised tolerances and are getting away with it. They are the real crooks.
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Ever hear the term " accomplice?"
Manufacturers generally do not sell directly to the individual buyer. You have to go through a dealer. If the dealer knows that a product is not up to par as advertised, why is he or she carrying the product and selling the product knowing that the product is deficient? That does not make the manufacturer the only culprit. I wonder how the manufacturers would respond to dealers if the dealers were to (always) cull the arrows and send back the bad ones? Is it asking too much that a dealer assure that his customer is getting a reliable product and what the customer paid for? If a dealer of any store knowingly selling any faulty/unreliable product was to tell me that I have to take it or leave it, and pay full price for doing so (take it), guess where I no longer go… and also tell others to not go? |
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If a dealer of any store knowingly selling any faulty/unreliable product was to tell me that I have to take it or leave it, and pay full price for doing so (take it), guess where I no longer go… I can repect the dealer that is being honest with me and telling me what I am getting. It is the dealer who knows, is being deceptive, and does not disclose the possible problem, is the one that I have a problem with. |
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Where can anyone go and pick through arrows until they have a perfect dozen?Didn' t know there was such a place.I know i wouldn' t want to order a dozen to find out they were ALL unacceptable.
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It is that kind of customer mentality that has allowed so much junk to saturate this nation and so much worthless and detrimental junk to permeate the bowhunting sport. Like it makes everything ok if a dealer is honest and tells you that he or she knows he or she is selling faulty products, and if you want it you will still pay full price. My question is; why is the dealer selling a product that is known to be imperfect?
It appears to me that such misdirected thinking is popularity guided. If the person or business that is selling the faulty product is well liked, then he, she, it, is doing nothing wrong. It is the fault of someone else. Where can anyone go and pick through arrows until they have a perfect dozen?Didn' t know there was such a place. |
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Where can anyone go and pick through arrows until they have a perfect dozen? But that doesn' t stop me from returning defective merchandise. If a shaft is not within it' s advertised tolerances, then it is a manufacturing flaw and it is defective. I have a right as a consumer to expect it to be replaced. When you buy a dozen eggs, do you expect that you' ll only eat 5 or 6 and the rest will be rotten? |
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I have a right as a consumer to expect it to be replaced. If the dealer allows you take the arrows home and then in a reasonable time period return any defective arrows for exchange until you acquire a complete set of arrows within the advertised tolerances, that is ok. |
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My question is; why is the dealer selling a product that is known to be imperfect? That question is so naive and stupid on so many levels that there is really no need to answer it. |
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I didn' t thoroughly read every post so this may repeat what has been said but here goes. I don' t blame anyone for not allowing ' selecting' . That is a whole different issue than shafts meeting specs. if tolerences are .006 someone would want to select .003, etc. Soon the only arrows left for buyers who don' t know how to pick through will be the lower end even if they are within specs. In the tuning trilogy that this started out to be I think the arrows have the least impact. I am the biggest problem in tuning followed closely by the bow and least of all the arrow. My bow isn' t as finely tuned as I would like but it will put a variety of arrows in pretty much the same place. In a hunting situation with good ethics an inch or two won' t matter.
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ARTHUR,
I agree with your last post but i thought i heard you talking about making tomato stakes with the less than perfect arrows--or maybe it wasn' t you and i' m mistaken? |
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Silent:
On the other hand, it may be that the reader may be too naive and stupid to be able to answer the question on any level. |
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...i thought i heard you talking about making tomato stakes with the less than perfect arrows... |
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On the other hand, it may be that the reader may be too naive and stupid to be able to answer the question on any level. 1. Please state the name of one arrow manufacturer that produces, ships , and sells 100% perfect arrows 100% percent of the time. 2. Please state the name of any manufacurer in any type of business that produces, ships, and sells 100% perfect products 100% of the time. I can' t wait to hear the name of this company because I am going to buy every bit of stock that I can beg or borrow the money for as they are undoubtedly the most profitable/lucrative company in existence today. |
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You guys know how the arrow buying game goes. If every arrow manufacturer only sold the " perfect" arrow no one would be able to afford to buy them(at least I wouldn' t). If you buy lower grade arrows then you know exactly what to expect (everyone here with any common sense does). If you want 12 " perfect" arrows then you buy the more expensive arrow with higher tolerances, that have been presorted. You know when you make the decision which types of arrows you are puchasing. For most of us, a dozen gold tips will do just fine as very few people actually shoot good enough to tell the difference between a " perfect" (not that such a creature even exits) and an " almost perfect" arrow.
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Nobody makes everything 100% perfect. It' s impossible. That' s why they have TOLERANCES. It can be off so much one way or another from the ideal. The further off from ideal the tolerances run, the cheaper it is. The closer to ideal the tolerances run, the more expensive it is.
But when I buy something advertised and warranteed to be within certain tolerances, then I expect it to be within those tolerances. If not, I expect it to be replaced. If I buy the cheapest stuff available, I expect a low yield of useable arrows. If I pay for top of the line stuff, I expect nearly 100% yield. 9 out of 24 is what I call low yield. |
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If I buy the cheapest stuff available, I expect a low yield of useable arrows Arthurp I am not saying that you are wrong for wanting to get what you pay for, as long as you have reasonable expectations. What I do find fault with is c3po coming here trying to make Len look like a crook, for basically selling arrows, becuase every dealer in the world sells lots of every type of arrow in the world that don' t fall 100% within specs. There is no sense trying to run someone down or make them look bad. |
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Arthur--my bad!here i thought you were actually usin' ' em for tomato stakes!
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I am not saying that you are wrong for wanting to get what you pay for, as long as you have reasonable expectations. What I do find fault with is c3po coming here trying to make Len look like a crook, for basically selling arrows, becuase every dealer in the world sells lots of every type of arrow in the world that don' t fall 100% within specs. There is no sense trying to run someone down or make them look bad. It' s not the dealer that' s at fault. I wouldn' t let anyone hand pick their own shafts either. But if I was a dealer, I' d be encouraging people to bring back the junkers so they can be checked against the manufacturers specs. Unhappy customers are not good for business. Bottom line, there are two different people at fault. The manufacturers for not meeting their own specs and the consumer for allowing them to rip him off. Actually, I guess there is also a third partner in crime... The vast majority of bowhunters are seasonal ' archers' that wouldn' t know a straight arrow from a dog' s hind leg and couldn' t shoot any more accurately with one than the other. They don' t know whether one arrow in their quiver shoots any more accurately than any other and they' re content in their ignorance. So are the manufacturers who are selling the stuff. But I reckon that falls into the most difficult category of all.... Tuning the archer. |
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ArthurP
How ever rare it may be, we actually agree on something[:o] Good Post! |
RE: The tuning trilogy!
Wha...!??! I nearly fainted dead away, SA! :D
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