RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

When a manufacturer advertises +/-.003" straightness, does that mean a shaft when checked with a dial indicator could read .006" T.I.R or .006 difference between the high and low points or should it be within .003" total difference?

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

+/- .003 means .006 TIR.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Thats what I thought Arthur P just confirming. Hey Len, I see you peeking. I don' t think I answered about the method I use for finding the stiff/weak side of an arrow shaft. I am not too good at explaining things in writing but I will try. What I do is take 3 small sealed ball bearings with an inside bore diameter just slightly larger than the diameter of the shaft (where I originally read it the suggested using the bearings from a skateboard wheel). Remove the seals from both sides and flush ot the stiff grease that is usually packed in there so the bearings can rotate as freely as possible.

I then run the arrow shaft thru all 3 bearings. With the three bearings on the shaft, I support the two outer bearings on small blocks of wood(about the size of children' s play blocks) with a " V" cut on each one to keep the bearings in place. Then press down on the center bearing to put a considerable flex in the shaft. If you then rotate the shaft from the end slowly, you can feel the stiff point as it rolls around. There will actually feel to be 2 stiff side 180 deg. apart and 2 weaker sides. With careful feel you can find the actual stiffest and weakest sides. I then mark the most stiff point with whiteout etc. and that is where I align my cock fletch. I hope this explains enough to get the idea. If not just say so and I will try again or try to figure out how to make a drawing.

I know this is not as accurate as a spine tester but works fairly well for my amature use. I think I paid $10-$12 for three bearings at the supply house. I really noticed a difference in grouping when I started doing this.

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Silent:

Try reading again…. after a taking course in reading comprehension. You have the habit of taking excerpts out of context to fit your cause. Nobody called Len, or anyone, a crook; nor inferred such. Me thinks you are more mouth than brains. You keep confirming what I have long suspected, that your experience and knowledge in the area of bowhunting/archery is more role-playing than actual. You just want to hang with crowd.

In addition, I have been around the game long enough to know that arrows are not 100% perfect. The actual point I was making obviously flew high over your head. I also know what the term " grade" means vs. cost and expectations. Once more, understanding simple language appears to have evaded you.

Understanding why a consumer has the right to reasonable expectations when you pay for something, should not be difficult for any adult of average intelligence to grasp.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

8PT: Thanks for the explanation. I totally understand what you' re doing. I do wonder whether or not the test actually reflects spine or arc. Not to worry, because I also wonder the same about the way manufacturers do their testing. I' m sure, however, that their test methods are quite a bit more sophisticated. Anyway, I think I' ll check out your process.;)

Now on to the matter at hand. I try diligently to educate/assist my customers in their arrow selection, tuning and advanced evaluation. I provide spin testers at 3 places in my shop for customers to test their arrows whenever they want. I will take time to show any customer how to use the spin testers for both the base arrow and with the broadhead attached. :eek:

I explain to my customers about the straightness issue and that the manufacturers of wrapped carbon arrows are not controlling batches of production very well. I explain that this is beyond my control; but, that I want them hunting with the best equipment possible. When we are asked to tune any bow, we always ask for several arrows and spin test them in front of the customer. When they see this, they almost always want to test the rest of their arrows. Even if they didn' t buy their arrows from me, I always suggest that they use our testers.:D

With 20,000+ arrow sales a year, it would be ridiculous for us to do any selective analysis. Besides not having the time, my customers wouldn' t want to pay for that extra service. We are in a very competitive environment as it is. Can you imagine where we would be if we tried to do what some have suggested? Would you like to be the one left with arrows that have been repeatedly ' selected' by other archers? [:o]

No, I won' t let customers ' select' their arrows.[:-] If anyone has a problem with what they deem ' out of spec' , I strongly suggest that they personally send the ' bad' arrows back to the manufacturers. Does your PRO Shop put spin testers out for you to use? Does your PRO Shop even tell you about this situation. Does your PRO Shop check your arrows before they try to tune your bow? If the manufacturers started receiving shipments of arrows back from volumes of customers, maybe then their quality control will get better. I can' t change the system alone and I won' t be the dupe of ridicule by those who ' think' they can do better. :)

I figured I' d bring some of my findings to several forums so that others in the world could understand this problem. It was greeted with thanks on the other forums. Here, while I see that many appreciate the advice, we have a few who you just can' t please. I was always taught not to kill the messenger. It' s evident that some here may have trouble with understanding this issue. We wonder why a lot of people don' t post and why a lot of good people leave forums. Don' t worry, I can take the heat; but, it makes one wonder why they should even try to get an educational message across. [:' (]

Thank you to those that understand the situation and are positive in their posts.;) To the others, ?????? No, I' m not mad, just confused by your attitude.:)

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If the rejected arrows are defective or outside the tolerances claimed, why would those arrows remain in stock for consumers to buy? Plays like the rejected lumber that remains in the stack at the lumber yards. The uninformed will buy a percentage of the rejected lumber.

Len; whether it be you or any dealer, when you know that certain products are not meeting the quality as advertised and as believed by the consumer, yet you sell the product to the public and are taking their money, your excuse that you cannot and should not be held responsible is crap.

You sell a product that you know could be defective, yet you say that your are out of the circle of responsibility, and that the customer -who gave YOU their money, should deal with the manufacturer only. Even to the point of the customer having to foot the expense of sending the item back? I do not care if you sell 200,000 arrows a year, that does not give you any immunity for selling products that you know might be defective or violates the " truth in advertising" ethics.

As for the customers having a better chance of improving quality control by their sending items back, that is insane. Whom do the customers buy the products from? Would it not have more impact if dealers/retailers refused to stock the product because they know the product lacks reasonable quality control? Or, is it more profit-productive to sell the junk, knowing that the odds are that a high percentage of customers will not know or will not send the product back to the manufacturer. Sort of a win-win situation for the manufacturers and the dealers….isn' t it?

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I float my aluminum arrows to find the stiff side. I think this helps but is not a
magical answer. I still find several shafts out of a dozen that don' t group well.
I did this 2 nights ago and my wife said i was crazy, floating my new shafts.
I told her I was tuning my arrows to make each one as consistant as I could.
I got to shoot 3 of those arrows tonight. At 20 yards all 3 were touching each
other. Now, if the other 9 will do this I' ll be happy.:D

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Neither Len nor any Pro Shop can control the quality of arrows shafts sent from
the factory. I have been bowhunting for 24 years and it' s just a fact of life that
when tuning arrows that some of those dozen arrows you buy are not good.
Let' s not put the blame on Pro Shop' s for something they can' t control.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Well, I know for sure if Len didn' t sell carbon arrows, then his customers would just go on down the road to Billy Bob' s Tune Ups, Beer Store, Bait House and Archery Supply and get the things there. I disagree with Len on two key points, but I' m not pointing fingers at him for selling this stuff.

I do not agree that we should simply accept that the arrows we buy will only yield a small percentage of useable arrows. If I knew that 3/4 of the tires I buy would blow out before I left the shop, I wouldn' t buy three complete sets to get one set that worked!

Nor do I agree that the customer should be left to his own devices when he' s got an arrow that' s obviously bad. I would expect the warranty on those tires I was talking about to be honored by the dealer. I would not be willing to send them back to the factory myself, to get ' lost in transit' or have them answer back saying the damage was road hazard. I know why dealers would rather you try to deal direct with the manufacturer, because they' d be snowed under with returns. A few would be genuinely bad arrows but most would be good arrows subjected to operator error.

My solution is that I' m not buying any more carbon arrows for the foreseeable future. Y' all let me know if they ever get half as good as aluminum arrows.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I' m wondering how long it takes to test a dozen arrows for straightness. Are several points checked?

By the way, when no one knows of a single dealer in the country that allows arrow selection or return of defective arrows through the dealer, then you shouldn' t blame a dealer on the policy. Dealers have to generally follow what everyone else does, or go out of business for lack of competitiveness. I would suggest calling the manufacturer and ask for the procedure for returning defective arrows. In some industries, all warranty returns are direct to the manufacturer. If this is the case in the arrow business, and we don' t like it, then complaining to the manufacturer is the best method of changing it.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Certain people thrive on being anonymous and creating tension by continuously making an argument about anything they can. Talking down to people and talking badly to people makes me think they' re trying to make themselves feel better; but, when they decide to remain anonymous, I don' t care to ' play' .

I know who I am and most others do as well. Many have visited my shop and know what kind of operation I run and where I stand on ' truth' - whether it be in one-on-one situations or manufacturers' advertising.

While I would be glad to explain what I do and where I stand to ANY other person posting, I WILL NOT respond to c903 unless and until he/she reveals their identity and starts posting in a more civil way.

ArthurP: I totally understand your decision not to accept the ' yield' ; but, what can I do. I have told the manufacturers by various ways that this situation stinks. I tell my customers not to buy certain arrows because of the yield factor. Guess what, they still want them. I don' t know of any other shop in the nation that warns their customers about this situation and provides spin testers for them to use. They require arrows and, if they don' t buy them from me with the knowledge and testing that I provide, they would wind up buying them from another source.

As far as the tire situation you describe, I think you should reconsider that scenario. Many of today' s tires can' t be checked by the consumer. They are balanced under a ' no load' situation and then are subjected to tremendous stress. My wife and I have had some horrible problems with tires in the past six months. One blow out, several broken/damaged belts and excessive noise after 1/4 to 1/2 the life of the tire. While the manufacturers give you great advertising, the truth is far from revealed until thousands of miles later. Should we make them put a dial indicator on the tire while it is on the balancing machine? Couldn' t you just hear the tire Dealer screaming or even laughing at you? Yes, the tire Dealer will ' honor' the warranty, but only after he prorates the tires. How do we prorate an arrow that is found out after the fact? At least I advise my customers ' up front' .

You mentioned ' obviously' bad. In the extreme cases that we have found, we yanked the arrows from the batch and gave the customers better ones. But, where do I draw the line? What is acceptable to one may be totally unacceptable to another. When you call a manufacturer on this issue, they' ll gladly send you out another arrow/set. But, HOW MANY GET OUT THERE THAT ARE BAD? The small percentage that may be returned is peanuts to the volume sold.

Quote:

---

My solution is that I' m not buying any more carbon arrows for the foreseeable future. Y' all let me know if they ever get half as good as aluminum arrows.

---

I really don' t blame you. But keep in mind that we' re now only seeing it in limited batches and that they are getting better in their yield. In other words, they' re not as bad as what we saw a few years ago. They still, however, don' t meet the advertised specs at least 20% of the time.

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Len, I certainly see your side of it. But I' m just a pore ol' Texas redneck that doesn' t have the money to throw away on a truckload of dung, hoping to find a few pearls buried in the slop. When someone like you, who sees more carbon arrows in one day that I could mess with in two years, tells me I' d have to buy two dozen of what is commonly acknowledged as the premier carbon/aluminum shaft in production today just to get 9 arrows I can actually hunt with, it certainly makes me sit up and take notice.

Even the midrange aluminum arrows have always given me a better yield than that.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

For what it' s worth I recently purchased 1 dozen beman ics 400' s.The arrows were within the specified weight range.Cut to my 28" length with inserts installed(by me).They spin fine and shoot fine.You might not shoot a 1400 FITA round.But they will kill deer at 30 yds if I do my part.Len I for one appreciate your honesty and enjoy reading your posts.Having a honest proshop to deal with is a blessing.The folks in maryland are lucky.I have dealt with enough yahoos who will sell you something just to make a buck.Quality control is a big issue.I wonder how many arrow manufacturers are ISO certified? I work in a business where we are ISO certified and if any product does not meet specs it must be segregrated and down graded.If our customers recieve a product that is not" within specs" It can cause major problems.


CB

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Len:

You are not being singled out. The thread just happen to swing to the dealer vs. consumer, or consumer vs. dealer, -how ever you want to arrange it; and you just happen to voluntarily step into the slot as a dealer advocate. If you do not like having consumers presenting their opinions, then do not present yours. That attitude is another example of " Give me your money and take it as is and don' t bring it back, or leave it and go somewhere else"


As for your not liking what I say or how I say it, it is your prerogative to not read or respond. If I want to express my views regarding how some dealers believe they are dong the consumer a favor, rather than just the opposite, I will do so. As for your demand that I provide my actual name, address, and place of birth, on the Internet for the world to know, just to appease you is absurd. Just who in the do you think you are? [:@]

PS:

What does that statement mean? Somewhere between selling a product that you know is only slightly defective vs. one that you know is badly defective, there is a line where you do or don' t? [:o]

What has that got to do with an the individual customer? [:@]

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Where did this thread go wrong? First I want to thank Len for being open and honest. I suspect most shops would not go to the great lengths he does to insure his customers have all the information the need to make an honest and resoanable choice. I don' t know Len, but from what I have read, and the few emails I have had with him I would say that if he could hand select arrows and send the bad ones back to the manufacture for replacement, he probably would. I bet 90% of us would not even know a problem existed if not for him and a few others. Len thank you for the info.
C903, play nice;):D
As for the arrow issue, that' s why old 5 shot just purchased another dozen 2314 superslams and will be shooting them again this year for hunting. I have tried differnt carbon arrows and the " skinny" pultruded shafts seem to be the best of the bunch, but aluminum is still better and I get far fewer arrows that won' t group as they should. Use what you like, and be thankful that we have guys like Len to help all of use make better informed choices.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I agree that the information that Len has given us, is and has been very valuable. I appreciate it. You sound like you run a heck of a good business. I know there isn' t a single shop around here, helping it' s customers like you appear to.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

5 shot, I really don' t see the thread as going wrong because this issue is part of the whole tuning triad. You cannot tune an arrow that isn' t straight or has inconsistent spine. To top it off, the higher performance bow you' re trying to shoot it out of, the more the arrow' s problems are going to be magnified.

Len, that' s pretty much what I pointed out earlier. I know you' ve got a business to run and need to keep the lights on and beans on the table, so I' m not blaming YOU at all. I' m just a little sick of the manufacturers operating on the P.T. Barnum theory of business. ' There' s a sucker born every minute.'

I think if a lot more dealers did speak up and ream the manufacturers, then they' d get a bit more concerned about improving the quality of what goes out their doors. But what would really get their attention is if we, the consumers, started demanding quality products instead of accepting that maybe 4 or 5 arrows out of a dozen will be useable.

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Arthur: Had a customer in today who had bought arrows at the local mass merchant. He came it to get his string changed, a new sight, and his bow tuned. I asked him for an arrow. I put it on the spin tester and it was bad. Second arrow bad. Third arrow was acceptable. He then asked me to check his remaining 3 NEW arrows. The other 3 tested bad. Needless to say, he was not a happy person. Would he have ever known if he hadn' t come into my shop? Doubtful.;)

He left his bow and I proceeded to work on it. I got it to tune fairly quickly and it looked good. I changed to the new sight he wanted and proceeded to shoot it to check out whether or not I had it pretty much in the same location as the old sight. During the process I noticed that the arrow wasn' t flying right. I took it back over to the tuning range and it went haywire. I then took a similar arrow out of our sample bucket and shot it. PERFECT! I took the customer' s arrow back over to the spin tester and it was now BAD. [:@] Noticeably different on the spin tester from what I accepted the first time around.

That one arrow out of six that was good just went ' south' . The one thing that I noticed was that they all failed at the nock end. Only one failed at both ends. I' m beginning to think that these nocks pressed into the raw shafts may be suspect. [:o]

I' m wondering if anyone has ever had a similar occurrence? Has anyone ever noticed an arrow going out while shooting it? Had I not been deeply into the tuning process, I don' t think I would have noticed it as quickly.:)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Len, I' ve never trusted press in nocks. What I' d like to see is a metal nock insert made to take a glue on nock instead of those pressed in nocks. I think that might be a big help.

I' m very interested in how many carbons you find that are whompy jawed at the ends because my draw length is so long that I don' t have the luxury of trimming my arrows at all. I have to use full length shafts. That could very well be the reason I' ve never gotten carbon arrows to shoot broadheads consistently, at all. So far, I' ve had exactly zero yield out of the 8 dozen I' ve bought. Even shooting field archery with field points, my scores drop nearly 30 points under my average with carbon.

Fortunately, 3D doesn' t require quite the same level of precision that I need to 20 out on an 80 yard walkup.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Len, thanks for the headsup on the carbons. Personally, I used them one year, and didn' t really like them much. I stay with the aluminums, and may go back to carbons someday. You are correct though, that you are the only proshop that has let me know of problems that can be associated with carbons, and I thank you for that.

Jeez, I think it is a good thing that we are not still in the cedar days. But, I do remember those days as being the worry free days even though you could only get a few out of a dozen to spine or even be straight consistantly. Just a thought.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

You' re right, I must not have paid attention, because I have no idea what a " taking" course is. However, I am familiar with taking a course.

You just said dealers (i.e. Len) were an accomplice to the " crooks" because he sells a product that his customers buy willingly.

Again, you said it chief not me. If that' s not what you meant then try writing it again after a taking course in writing.[&:]

Me thinks you are all mouth and no b@!!$!

Shucks, I gave all that away by pointing out that you were making an innappropriate dig at Len, because you have an unhappy life and you want everyone else to be as unhappy as you are:(

Oh, I got the point. The point is that you' re an *******;)

For those of us with reasonable intelligence, it was not difficult to grasp.;)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Good discussion here.

A couple of things I’d like to add and/or elaborate upon...

As Len has made mention of, the push in nocks for carbons are bad news. They are particularly bad for Carbon Express and Beman because they have the smallest inside diameters of the Big Three manufacturers. Goldtips are not as bad because they are sized just a touch bigger (.246 vs. .243 for CX, and .244 for Bemans). If you remember, Carbon Express originally came with Bohnings Signature nock. These were HORRENDOUS because they were a shade too big, and people were cracking the shafts left and right just putting the nocks in. You can hear ‘em crack when you do it. Soon after CX designed their own smaller diameter nock. Easton Supernocks are just as bad because they have a small tab that increases the diameter slightly on them so they will stay secure and not become loose. With the generally poor tolerances of all carbon shafts, which can vary in inside diameter, it made for some really tight fits (causing cracking) or it was not tight enough and eventually you’d shoot your arrow, and your nock was still attached to the string. Bemans were especially bad for this in the beginning though not as bad in recent days.

This is why I ALWAYS stress that folks use unibushings. Not only do they protect from nock end hits, they never are too large in diameter to where they will crack a shaft installing them. In our shop we do a lot of business w/ Carbon Express and we prefer the Redline 410/360 uni’s as they seem to fit a little more snug, AND they are twice as long as an ACC bushing, providing further reinforcement on the fairly brittle nock ends of CX shafts (CX’s are the least structurally sound I’ve found for nock end hits). The Bemans are tougher to work with because the Redline bushings and the 3-60 bushings are a tad too small, so you usually want to install using a slow set glue or epoxy, and spin test them like you would an insert. The ACC and Redline bushings are way too loose in Goldtip shafts, but luckily Goldtip makes their own uni specifically for their shafts (which unfortunately is too tight in the Bemans)

Installing uni’s is the best investment you can make for your arrows longevity. You won’t crack any installing nocks, and they will take some serious abuse from nock end hits. It’s about another 12 to 14 bucks for a dozen bushings and a dozen G-nocks, but worth every darn penny (plus the .098 G-nock is just a better nock for fit on most center servings these days: super nocks and bohnings are way too tight on most strings). I won’t shoot without them.

I have had some arrows go out while shooting them. Beman ICSH used to be bad for this. I’ve had several arrows in some older dozens that would shoot great for a couple of weeks, and then after shooting them fine, just one time I’d walk down to the target, pull ‘em, and they would go haywire after that. And of course I’ve had plenty that while in the target they would take a glancing blow from another, and then would not shoot well after that despite no apparent damage.

I’ve been saying it for a long time, but in the vast majority of cases, you get what you pay for when you skimp on arrows. Cheap carbons suck. I see guys who say they shoot great, but I’ve watched many of these guys shoot, and while I’m no Dave Cousins, the arrows are the least of their worries. Baseball to softball sized groups w/ mech broadheads out to 25 or 30 yards are not a good indicator of shafting quality. Quarter sized groups are. The problem is compounded when you attach a conventional broadhead, no-one has made sure the inserts are in straight, and you have virtually no fletch control (straight fletch low profile vanes, which is the way a lot of shops fletch or buy from distributors ‘cos it’s easier and saves time). However if you A: Purchase some good quality shafting. B: learn how to build arrows properly, C: tune your shooting system (including yourself), and D: insure you have a good amount of control from the fletches , you can get moderate to smaller profile fixed blade heads to fly well. The problem I see is guys buying cheap arrows that are poorly built. They just screw on a thunderhead 125, skewer their outside air conditioning unit then go buy mechs or go back to aluminums..well…duh! Of course you are not going to get good broadhead flight with poorly made shafts, a bad fletch job, and a big broadhead...

While finding the high spine point and fletching your cock feather on all arrows is the best way to do things, you can often make a few seemingly unacceptable shafts pull into your group simply by rotating the nocks. This works very well for those shooting a drop-away or WB because you can minutely adjust the nocks 1/16” (and sometimes this all you need) and not worry about it. On prong style rests you just rotate to the next fletch, and hope for the best. But oftentimes this little trick can pull a “bad arrow” that is out by 6” or so back into your group. I recently had to do this with some Blackhawk ACC copies (so-so arrows in my experience). 3 of the half dozen arrows grouped, 3 were out anywhere from 3 to 7” @ 20 yards. I rotated the nock on each one to a different vane and managed to pull them all into a decent group. One would still consistently fly right 1”. But a 2” group is much better than an 8” one.

I should mention though I’ve been shooting some recently manufactured Goldtip XT shafts and have been thoroughly impressed with them for a mid-range price arrow shafting. Goldtip has definitely upped the Quality Control, as these XT’s shoot very (all of them, after tweaking the nocks) even at longer ranges. I plan to experiment further with them in the future, after basically giving up on them after getting a few horrid dozens in recent years. I will certainly post my findings.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I bought a doz arrows at a proshop in my area last fall. They were assembled by the proshop owners kids I think. Beman ICS. Well, I was having trouble tuning these for broadheads. So I go to the proshop and ask for advise to spin test. As I have never had that much trouble with aluminums. As usual, I do get the assitance needed. I play dumb around this guy. This seems to get the best results on advise. If you dare act like you know something, he gets very arrogant. The owner spin tests with the broadheads, and guess what, they wobbled something horrible. About 9 out of 12. I never told him where I got the arrows. He then tells me I assembled them wrong and the inserts were out of line. I then brake the silence and tell him they were assembled at his shop. He assumed I got them at the local mass merchant. He then said it was just the yield of the arrow and thats what you get. And suggested I send back to the vendor. Called Beman, they said since they didn' t assemble the inserts or the vanes, it can' t be thier issue.

Figures

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

And, there you go! " bigcountry' s" experience is the moral of the story.

At what point is the dealer exempt from having any responsibility for certain products he or she is stocking and selling when the dealer is aware that a he or she is selling you a particular product that has a higher than normal rate of failure or flaws? I am not talking about all products, typical factory warranty issues, or weeks later. I am talking about; before the product leaves the shop or the defect is detected within a few days.

If the dealer knows that a percentage of a particular shaft/type does have a higher than normal rate of failure/flaw, why is it considered impractical and of undue expectation to require the dealer to assure that you are receiving (certain) goods that meet the standards as claimed and are not already flawed, before you hand your money over?

It is easy and a " cop out" to say that the manufacturer will make good. First, why should the customer be the one that has to jump through hoops? Second, manufacturers do not always make good as easy -if ever, as is claimed; especially when the dealer (shop) has utilized the raw product to create and sell a fabricated product?

In " big country' s" case, the shop (apparently) used defective raw materials to fabricate " big country' s" shafts, yet does not feel the shop should make good? That is one big wagon of horse crap!

The sad part is; such attitudes and customer service (rip-offs) is not that uncommon with many of the small and privately owned bow-shops I have patronized in my time. That is why I do most of my bow biz via catalogues and, now, the Internet. With most of the mail-order businesses, I can usually return wrong or defective goods with no problem…..at the business' expense.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Or they actually were assembled poorly.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

BC: Was most of the wobble at the nock end or the point end? Most of the problems we' re seeing are at the nock end. The Dealer has nothing to do with this end of the arrow since they come already assembled with the nocks. If it is on the point end, pressing too hard or inconsistent, while cutting the arrow on the cut-off saw, could give you a bad cut. This is, however, usually seen by the point insert not being flush with the cut around the circumference of the shaft. Beman also has an abnormally long point insert which will moreso assure concentricity to the shaft.

I have my daughter doing arrows for me. Of all my arrow builders, she is said to be one of the best by the others. After all, she' s grown up around the shop. :D

Ps JeffB: Great post.;)

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Len, you got my curiosity up so I grabbed a selection of arrows at random out of my arrow bucket. 4 cedars, 4 carbons (Gold Tip Hunters) and 4 aluminums (Gamegetter II, 2315) and measured runout on the tip ends. I figured it was only fair to compare non-premium aluminum to non-premium carbon. Didn' t have any bare shafts and didn' t feel like stripping any off and refletching right now, so I did not check the nock ends. The measurement was taken just behind the shoulder of the inserts on the carbons and aluminums, right behind the back of point on the cedars. The tips were held constant at 4" from the near side support.

Results: The worst cedar was straight within +/- .003, or .006 TIR. On the aluminums, the needle hardly quivered on any of them, less than +/- .001, or less than .002 TIR. The carbons ran from +/- .004 to .008, or .008 to .016 TIR, avg. .011 TIR. Remember that these are full length shafts that I use for arrows, untrimmed.

Now I' m going to be forced by curiosity to strip the fletchings off some of the carbons and check that nock end.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

The point was that, under certain circumstances a dealer has an indisputable obligation to assure that customers do not pay for and receive defective goods. Shafts definitely fall into said category.

Shafts are not sealed and are normally individually accessible for a dealer to inspect, especially when the shop is making up an order. The obligation for the shop to inspect for defects is increased fourfold when it is known that a certain brand or type has a reputation for high flaw ratio.

Who cares what end of the shaft has the flaw and who is responsible for " the end?" I would not! I would only care that the shop sold me a bunch of arrows of which some were beyond the acceptable tolerances, or has defects. I would want my money back because the dealer has the obligation to assure I do not receive defective shafts since it is possible to do so.

If I was shop owner, and I knew that certain shafts had a reputation of having a high flaw rate, I would want to make sure that I did not sell defective arrows, not just because it is smart business, but because they might cause grave injury, and I sold the shafts.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

First, dealers do NOT make the product. Like all things, no matter what product you purchase, there will be a certain percentage of " cheese" , no manufacturer is dead nuts perfect, anywhere. In arrows and shafts, this usually ends up being anywhere from one or two out of a dozen on the straightest .001 shafts, to as many as 4 or 5 on the lesser shafts/arrows.

Fact---MOST of my hunting customers could give a rat about straightness tolerances. Most are looking for an " inexpensive" hunting arrow. Thus most buy the " lesser" straightness tolerance arrows, .006 or so, due to price more than anything else. It is up to each individual to decide for themselves what he/she wants to shoot, we dealers can only give our opinions of what we feel is best. Tournament shooters and serious hunters go for a bit better shaft/arrow, granted---these guys can choose .001 tolerance shafts from practically any company, even " selects" that are hand chosen and bundled in dozens with even tighter tolerances. Those huge conglomerate arrow companies that have their stuff built in china now and only cater to those mega-stores who sell 5 bllion shafts/arrows per year are certainly not concerned about this, they only care about the dollars they bring in, so there is really little we dealers can do except maybe offer alternative products which we feel will do a better job to those who feel they want to shoot the better arrows. If everyone starts falling into line here, not only will there be true " Pro-shops" continuing on in the future, but maybe the comglomerates will wake up and find that there is much more to this industry than simply how many million units you can sell the fastest. (megastores) I look at it this way---if the true Pro-shops fall, and you are only left with the larger megastores, WHO is going to work on equipment for one, and WHO is going to give two cents about any quality issues then? Answer---NO-ONE.[:o] Unfortuntely there are currently major archery-industry companies trying to force us " normal" dealers right out of the industry by giving substantial " breaks" to the megastores. There are far less Pro shops today than there were 5 years ago, and sadly this trend will continue until we squash the beast that has become the Pro-shops enemy.


Another point of contention--

A .001 arrow is a .001 arrow, doesn' t matter if it' s aluminum, carbon, wood, glass, whatever. The alternating factor is what the arrow is made of, and the way it is built---aluminum bends easily, so a .001 arrow that takes a good schmuck or hits a target at an angle will then quickly become .040. A pultruded carbon arrow with unidirectional fibers built with a lesser process will of course lose it' s spine quicker than an arrow made of biased-wrapped construction and newer, better manufacturing processes. Technology moves forward, and I have a hard time belieiving that anyone truly believes that todays' arrow designs are weaker or give out quicker than those of yesteryear, if they do I feel they have been asleep for a dozen years or so, hehe. Wood worked fine, fiberglass worked better, aluminum worked better, pultruded shafts worked better. Biased-wrapped carbon works better still also.

More later.;) Pinwheel 12

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Could mostly go along with you until you went there, Pinwheel. With that, I' m in flat disagreement. Aluminum is still top dog. Yeah, it bends but I' ve got an arrow straightener! Carbons (the ones I can afford) come from the factory bent and ain' t nuthin' I can do to fix ' em.

Maybe I can do carbons like I do wood.... Since they' re bonded with thermoset resin maybe I can sit by the ol' campfire and straighten them with heat.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Fact: The manufacturer states an exceptable tolerence their shafts will fall into.
Fact: They use this as a selling point.

Fact: If the shaft don' t meet their standards, it is defective.

We as consumers have the right right to return defective merchandise.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Len, may be a dumb question, but does it really matter if the cut off is not perfect and does not exactly flush with the point insert. Wouldn' t the straightness of the insert along with a uniform inner diameter pick up the slack for a " bad cut" . Just wondering.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

There is also another option consumers have, nub. When we know that a sizeable number of carbons we buy will not be what they' re represented to be, we have the option to buy something else. I could shoot aluminum the rest of my life and be happy as a clam. Unless the quality starts slipping.

If that happens, I' ll be back to clipping wild rose and salt cedar shoots and making arrows out of them, just like I was doing 40 years ago.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Arthur-

I was just wondering how you positioned your supports for measuring runout. Does this mean you had a support 4" from the tip end? Where was the other end positioned?

I think I remember calling Easton on this a few years ago to get the exact procedure on how they measure their runout. Don' t they use a set span of 28" (same as spine measurements) with the shaft centered over the supports for their straightness tests?

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Depending on the bow shop, many shops DO MAKE PRODUCTS. Most make up arrows from shaft stock, some also make strings, and some also make cable/harness systems.

If I were to have a set of arrows made at a shop and I discovered that several of the shafts were way out of advertised tolerance and/or some were defective, and/or some of the fletch/vane were defective, and/or the fletch/vanes started falling off because the adhesive used turned out to be a bad batch; because of what has been said, I am to believe and accept that the pro shop has no accountability and therefore no obligation to make good…… However, they (shop) do have the right to keep my money and tell me to resolve my problems with only the manufacturers of the products/materials that the shop used? ……That is bad business, and partly why I have not patronized bowshops for quite awhile, other than to purchase a part or a small item.

I keep hearing; " It has always been, therefore it is righteous and it will always be!" Bull! Just because something has always been……when in fact it has not, does not mean that it is acceptable. If I were to patronize a shop and demand that I get my bang for my buck, but the dealer said that I will take what I am given and like it, or that the shop will not stand behind the product they sell, I would be on my way, and many of the bowhunters that I know would go with me.

If it truly is a FACT that (paraphrased) " MOST hunting customers could give a rat about straightness tolerances," and that statement is universal, that would mean that ethics of MOSTof bowhunters and the sport has greatly degraded. In addition, that statement should be taken by MOST bowhunters as a slap in the face.

This entire dealer whining and passing the buck has reminded my why I eventually acquired all the equipment necessary; and for a very long time I have refurbished and repaired my own equipment and have made my own arrows.

Locally, a small computer shop opened about 4 years ago. They sell products that they do not manufacturer. However, they personally exceed the factory warranty and give a 3-year warranty on all the products they sell and on all the work they do. If I purchase any product from them, and the product is defective or becomes defective, I take the item back to the shop. They (shop) make good and THEY send the product back to the factory for replacement or reimbursement.

Their business has rapidly grown and their reputation is well known. Today I will be meeting a brother who will be picking up his repaired computer from the shop; a computer he did not purchase from the shop. He lives 89 miles away and had heard of the shop' s reputation and good business practices.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Black Frog, you are correct that Easton, all arrow manufacturers actually, uses a specific distance between supports. Then they check runout in the center of the shaft. Problem is, if you' re checking a 33" long shaft across supports that are 28" apart, then you' ve got a couple of inches of each end of the shaft that are not being checked at all.

So, that method doesn' t really tell you what' s going on with the ends of the shaft. My supports were closer together than 28" , supporting the shaft, with the tip sticking out 4" past the support so I could measure concentricity of the tip to the rest of the shaft. I could' ve gone 3" . I could' ve gone 6" . I just settled on 4" because that' s kinda where I wound up with my setup.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Len, they were wobbling around the points. Thats the reason he was blaiming the inserts. Then I told him it was his shop, then it was the arrows.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I have unfortunately found that THAT statement runs fairly true. Many (not all, but some) bowhunters I see are happy to get their arrows in a paper plate at 30yds and call that good enough. You don' t need .001" arrows to do that. Most bowhunters on these internet forums are NOT that type, because they obviously care enough to take the time out of their day to get on here and learn/share information.

It' s no slap in the face- it is the reality that some don' t care enough about the sport to give it the respect it deserves.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Arthur-

But if you' re checking runout at the ends, that will be VERY dependent on where you put your supports in the center. If the supports are only 10" apart for a 30" shaft the ends will be showing much more runout than if your supports are 28" apart for a 30" shaft.

Need to have some sort of standard convention for measuring runout on the ends, just like there is a standard for measuring runout in the center. Something like: " supports 4" in from each end, regardless of shaft length" . ?

Measuring the spine and center runout at a 28" span makes the overhang on each side past the 28" irrelevant. The shaft could be 28.25" or 32" and it should be the same measurement for that given shaft. But for the runout at the ends, then the overhang past the center supports becomes critical. Agreed?

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Black Frog, I made a very good living as a machinist and quality control inspector in the aerospace industry before I retired. So, I have the background and experience behind me to know how to check what I want to find out.

What I am checking is not kosher according to what the manufacturers supposedly guarantee, but it is critical to someone that' s wanting to get a broadhead to spin true. If the insert end of the arrow doesn' t spin true, the broadhead never will.

Same thing applies to the nock end. If the nock is offcenter from the shaft, then the string will power the arrow off to the side instead of down the center. If the nock is misaligned horizontally to the rest, the arrow will be forced sideways by the string. If the nock is misaligned vertically, it will be forced off either up or down.

You' re right that placement of the support will affect the readings. If I' d gone to 2" overhang instead of 4" , the runout would likely have been less. If I' d gone 6" , the runout would likely have been more. 4" was just an arbitrary decision on my part.