RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Len this is similar to the tool I have available to check my shafts. Might even be the same one. Is it accurate enough given the amout one can spread the supports? Do you check your shafts on 28" supports for your own use?

I guess if don' t use the manufacturers guidelines for support, we have nothing to bitch about.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

C-903

Not slapping anyone in the face, stating factual evidence seen by my own eyes in my 35+ years in this sport and industry.

All-

If the hunters want the cheapest arrows they can afford, that is NOT mine, Len' s, or any other dealers' fault! Some are pointing fingers in the wrong direction here!

I understand where you guys are coming from, but realistically, there are only a small handful of people who will ever go to such extremes, and even if some of us dealers did also in our attempts to make an example and promote a better product, we would simply be cut for some trumped-up reason. " Spitting into the wind" comes to mind here.

Dog-eat-dog world. Best thing we can do is to all work together to find the best products within a specific industry--here we are talking arrow shafts. Buy the ones we find have the best tolerances, and boycott the ones who do not. We dealers build arrows yes, but who will be the first ones to complain IF we were to charge $200 per dozen for carbons that are all hand-weighed, matched, and or even tuned to the same hole out of a hooter-shooter?(we have to get paid for our time spent, time is money, right?) Will everyone buy them? Of course not. This is the point. Many people simply do not care about such extremes.

To be honest, I see more crying about virtually everything on the messageboards nowadays, heads and shoulders more than I ever heard throughout my entire archery career up until this point. Why is that? I think it is just simply something to talk about more than anything....

Bottom line and easiest way out of this for those who feel they are getting " shafted" (get it, arrows, shafted, oh, never mind:D[&:])---buy three dozen arrows,[:o] sort thru, match weigh shafts and components, assemble them, match weigh them again. Keep only the ones that match. Shoot them thru a hooter and individually tune each one to hit the same hole at 20 yds. If they do not, put them aside also. When you come to find 12 that hit the same hole, stop there, put them in your quiver. Sell the rest on e-bay as brand-new arrows like most knowledgeable archers who have access to a hooter do. (If you don' t have a hooter, no need to bother anyway, because I know no-one who can consistently put arrows into the same hole at 20yds by hand, so moot point) If you feel the manufacturers are not within specs, e-mail or write letters to the manufacturers telling them their stuff sucks, then buy a different manufacturers' products next time around and try them instead.

This way, you always have great stuff in your quiver, are never out any real money, and have the satisfaction of knowing you voiced your opinion to the appropriate sources, not simply bantered on a messageboard system where the manufacturers never show anyway and therefore never hear the gripes to begin with so nothing ever gets resolved. Simple, no?;) Pinwheel 12

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Pinwheel,

Great post but your wasting your time. You can' t argue with logic and common sense with some people. Everyone here with a little common sense knows that you can' t go through that kind of time and trouble and still keep arrows affordable enough for the average archer to buy. You Pro Shop owners should feel good though because you prvide several necessary services, not the least of which is giving people with nothing better to do, something to bitch about.:D

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Remind me to never buy arrows from you Hooter owners off Ebay.[:' (]:(

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SA--

Thank-you fer yer support!:D[&:];)

Nub--

Don' t feel bad, you' re not the only one who didn' t know.;) Pinwheel 12

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Pinwheel, so that' s $100 for a 1/2 dozen, right?

Do you need my bow to do the testing? :)

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Rangeball-

Yep, gotta send your bow....Fed Ex overnight of course!:D[&:] LOL. Pinwheel 12

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Arthur- I didn' t mean to imply that you didn' t know how to find out that information, I know you do and I apologize if it came across that way. I agree with your post 100%.

I too find that some factory ends are less than desireable, so if I' m making some 28" arrows from 32" raw shafts, I' ll cut 2" from both ends rather than cutting 4" from one and and leaving the other end as is from the factory.

Also, the " straightness" spec from the manufacturers is really only good at that center between the 28" span. I suppose this assumes that the shaft has imperfections in an arc-like fashion over the length of the shaft. Then the greatest runout will be in the center. What if the shaft has a more S-like imperfection? Then the center reading may indicate just about perfect, but the ends are going to be all over the place.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Well, at least pertaining to the issue at hand, you see more crying because of the overemphasis on SPEED. Performance of the equipment is going through the roof, the bows are a lot more critical to shoot, and the quality of the arrows everybody wants, to get the speed, is crap. More critical bows, worse arrows and no wonder people are getting discouraged and crying.

As for the idea of buying several dozen arrows, picking out the good stuff and then selling the junk to some poor devil on down the road... Sorry, but that just doesn' t appeal to my sense of honesty. I couldn' t do that.

But thanks for the warning, Pinwheel. I' d always thought higher of my fellow archers than that. Didn' t know we were bringing in gutter trash.

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Advising people to do that is just not right. [:' (][:' (][:' (]

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

No offense taken, Black Frog. No worries.

I do check my arrows in several places up and down the shaft to make sure I don' t have an S curve.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Arthur-

I brought that up because when manufacturers state their straightness spec, is that only for that center position between 28" ?

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Ditto on the condemnation of selling stuff you know is flawed and claiming the item is/are new to some other poor soul, on eBay. Glad to see that there still are honest bowhunters who care enough to do the very best, regardless that some have insinuated that; " Half-ass and close enough" is the name of the game today.

I also see the ante is up. Now I need to use my money to purchase several dozen shafts to get one dozen, but I still do not take the flawed shafts back to the dealer. Just sell them to another person and perpetuate the rip-off.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

They don' t say whether it' s for the center position or not, but one would assume it is. I' d wager the arrows are machine gauged and I don' t know how many reference points they use. Nor do I know if they have any QC inspectors that pull any arrows off the machines to manually inspect them for any kind of statistical sampling.

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Art:

I definitely like your method and knowledge of checking and evaluating shafts and the material. Your background makes it quite worthy to hear what you have to say regarding the subject. (I may still have to get on your case in other subjects). :D

I am quite elated to hear your report on your aluminums. Hope the tolerances you determined are common. As much satisfaction, ease of setup, ease of maintenance, and reliability, I have had with aluminums for so many years, I would say they are.

I have never had an interest in using carbons. Too many reported problems. After this thread, I will never shoot carbon. :)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Arthur, I’d like to expand a bit on one of your points..

The real problem is that everyone wants something for nothing. The arrows that are precise enough to handle those speeds and still “execute” well, are indeed available: for a price. For those who cannot afford the high dollar shafting like the ACC’s, or the “hand picked” all carbon shafts, unfortunately you are not left with much of a choice.

If the arrows you (a general “you”) bought are indeed out of tolerances, most manufacturers are willing to replace them (and generally go to the trouble of giving you really good ones so they don’t hear from you again, LOL). I did it several years ago when Beman ICSH first appeared. My dozen was appalling. I sent 7 or 8 back, and received the same number of very good shafts back. Of course it’s easier to get replacements when you test bare shafts. Pre-fletched arrows (unless they come pre-fletched directly from the manufacturer and NOT the distributor) can be more difficult to replace.

Of course I agree that all arrows should measure up to their specs regardless of what those specs are or how much they cost (I’m sure everyone here knows I’m ONE OF the most anal people when it comes to arrow quality, if not THE MOST anal person re: arrow quality here on these boards). And I have voiced those concerns and offered my testing results (often to deaf ears it seems) to many folks on several message boards. I for one am glad to see this thread taking up so many posts. People need to be aware that not only are they being sold inferior shafting, but also that the inferior shafting is even worse than they advertise. Problem is most bowhunter’s (and I mean the vast majority of guys who are not hardcore archer’s), could care less as long as they can poke a deer in the Kill-zone from 20 yards…and the manufacturers know this. They know most guys can’t get any more accuracy/consistency out of Goldtip 3D Pro than they can a Goldtip Hunter, for example.

As we’ve seen here, I think most of us on these boards are way above average in regards to our existing knowledge, our desire to share it, and our desire to learn more. But WE are the minority. The only real way to solve this problem is to make better bowhunter’s who then in turn, will not put up w/ flawed product from the manufacturers, because they will be able to tell the difference. This goes for Pro-shop owner’s too. Unfortunately all but the best shop owners are fairly uneducated about arrows (among other things), other than how to cut, fletch and install inserts.[:' (]

I had a fellow come in a few weeks ago w/ his son. They both had $700-$800 bow set-ups (son was actually picking his up, as he bought it thee week before), and bought a dozen arrows to split between themselves. However, the Father went on to ask me that because he was shooting 125 grain broad-heads for the past few years if he should stop using the 75 grain field tips he’s been sighting in & practicing with for the same years. This fellow later told me he had been bowhunting for roughly 15 years. [:o]

It’s hard to “police ourselves” when the vast majority of the voting citizens don’t know wrong from right……..[:' (]

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

A lot of this has been talking about straightness tolerances, but what about spine tolerances?

That could potentially be a more important span difference within a dozen than how straight the shafts are.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

And that' s because it' s a moot point. If people were shooting on an Olympic level at 90 yard targets then yea it' s makes a difference. What we are talking about is making mountains out of mole hills. Deer can only get so dead. If I can hit a golf ball size object at 30 yards with an inferior arrow then what ******* difference does it make? This ain' t rocket science. People are talking out of both sides of their mouths. " I think the sport should be simpler" " The sport needs to go back to the traditional ways" blah blah blah Then on the other hand " I want the straightest most technically perfect dozen arrows that has ever been produced" but wait a minute when I say I want the same thing out of a bow then I am not a traditionalist(" it' s barely even archery anymore" " you might as well be shooting a crossbow" etc.). Everyone needs to step back take a breath and realize it' s just bowhunting and it' s suppose to be fun. Sure some of the fun is in " over analyzing" but let' s be for real. The friggn Indians were better archers than any of us and they didn' t have any way to test the straitness of their shafts. Number your damn arrows and shoot the ones that group together and put the rest of your effort into the important stuff (i.e. scouting, treestand placement, & talking your wife into letting you buy more stuff;))

(Jeff that " rant" was not directed at you)

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What do you mean ' us' , paleface? ;)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

S.A. I have typed a similar post about a dozen times today but it kept coming up short....so thank you for making an extremely valuable point.

Quite frankly, out of the 18 arrows that fit my current bow I don' t have a single one that won' t group with the others at 30 yards WITHIN MY ABILITIES. I shoot baseball size groups all the time and I' m happy with that. The fliers that I do have are random amongst the arrows, so I know it' s always my fault. I would bet that 90% of the users of this board couldn' t tell the difference between a shaft that is .002 out and one that is .010 out when shot at their ability.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

AKDoug, if you tried some good arrows you might find out you' re a better shot than you think you are. But if you' re happy with baseball size groups, more power to ya.

What do those groups look like with fixed blade broadheads? Or do you just shoot mechanicals and not even think about it?

Mechanicals are not an option for everybody. Some folks like me don' t trust them, others don' t shoot enough bow to use them. And believe it or not, .010" can make a heck of a lot of difference with broadhead accuracy, especially when it' s on one end or the other of the arrow.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I' ve been following this one for a while, I guess I' ll jump in the fire.[:o]

First of all, most carbons that you buy are not as straight as aluminum. I don' t think there' s much of an argument on that subject. unless you shoot thick walled aluminum shafts, after a week or two of shooting aluminum shafts, they probably are not going to be as straight as new alums. To me, all of this runout testing is probably not time well spent. [:o] But if that' s what trips your trigger I say go for it. :D I usually just number my arrows and keep track of any that consistently don' t hit point of aim. First I will try rotating the nock to try to bring it back in line. If that doesn' t work I' ll cull that arrow from the hunting batch.

The thing that really bothers me is people who say that just because someone buys their arrows off the rack and goes hunting, that they are disrespecting the game they hunt. The simple truth is that 99 out of 100 people can' t shoot well enough to notice differences in arrow straightness. That isn' t necessarily a bad thing. Most people know their limitations and stay within them. Everyone that bowhunts isn' t a world class archer. But that doesn' t mean they should stay home.

What amazes me is that you take a traditional bowhunter with longbow and wooden arrows and most everybody, including me, think that' s great. But you take a guy out there with a compound and immediately if his arrows aren' t perfect to a tee, he' s committed some crime against nature. [X(]

TUNE THE BOW TUNE THE ARROW TUNE THE ARCHER.....the system is only as good as the weakest link.

>>>---DAVIDP.---SILERCITY,NC--->

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I have never heard of the " friggn" tribe, so I cannot speak about them. However, as for other Native Americans, what you have said is not that accurate….your tolerances must be off. :) The American Indian generally used a short bow without much power, and shot crude arrows, That is why they had to get very close to their targets. They were known more for the firepower they could deliver.

Nevertheless, I am not a " frggn" Indian, I use real money, and it is 2003. I suspect that if you screwed an Indian and gave him less than what he expected to get for his " Wampum," he would have your scalp hanging from his quiver. Still a good idea, but not popular. ;)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Art, Bob Co--

Really, if one looks for " bargains" on e-bay they will get what they get. I do not sell anything there other than an occasional bow, but be advised that these type of things I mentioned above and you guys frown upon happen on a daily basis there. It was a " heads-up" , to the fact that it is indeed happening, not an insinuation that we all should do that. Pinwheel 12

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Nub: To answer your question, all that we deem necessary is usage of Pine Ridge spinning tools strategically placed around the shop. It is VERY easy to see the ends of the arrows wobble and any arrow that is not straight will readily show up as well. While a dial indicator will specify the amount of wobble in a thousandth of an inch, the naked eye will easily show you what is good verses what is bad. We do have tools that utilize dial indicators if feel the need to document the problem.;)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

The nice thing Arthur is that my broadheads fly exactly the same as my field points. I spent serious time making this happen and I' m very happy with the results. Same size group with my Muzzy 125' s as with my Slik Tip field points.

I don' t punch holes at fixed distances any more except for a few warm-up arrows and a weekly group testing to see if my dozen arrows I practice with are still grouping. I' m blessed to live in the woods so my 7 yr. old and I spend a lot of time kicking around our Stumper Kick Target (best target in the world ;) ) and trying realistic hunting situtations and getting good at estimating yardage. We do this in all weather, nearly every day. I' m more concerned with being a good hunting archer than a target archer. I am by no means a slob hunter.

Too many people these days getting obsessed with the tollerances of their equipment but do not have the ability to make their equipment perform to even near that level. Many are way to quick to blame the equipment before looking at their form or mental conditioning. You and I both know their are plenty of people out there blaming arrows when in fact they still have fletch contact on their rests or overall poor bow tune. Hell, my 10 year old bow still has plenty of hunting accuracy and I' ve shot plenty of new bows that I can not shoot better. Why change?

A baseball is the same size as the 5 ring on a 5-spot 20yard indoor target. If I don' t drop outside this at 30 yards I am more than happy. I never was a 300 shooter, and I doubt I' ll ever be. I have way more mental issues shooting 5-spots than I do squirrels.... I have some sort of circle fear...LOL...

I do shoot good arrows. At this moment I shoot 2219 XX75 Breakups and I' m more than happy. However, unless an arrow starts dropping out of the group on group day, I never even bother to straightness test them.

Oh well, time to head outside and kick the target in the rain :D

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I suggest reading ' Bows and Arrows of the Native Americans' by Jim Hamm and ' Cherokee Bows: How to Make and Shoot Them' by Al Herrin. You might find a new respect for those bows and arrows.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I personally find it AMAZING that people can actually compete in 3-D and spots with carbon arrows!!! I mean really...they are all SO bad....there must just be PILES of the things laying around that shooters thew away trying to find " good" arrows.
I concider myself to be statistically the luckiest man on Earth!!! I have bought 12 carbon arrows and got 12 that were to " spec" !!!!! Imagine that...I should be in the book of records or something!!! Guess I better go buy a lottery ticket.
More proof of my LUCK? I can actually get my broadheads to hit where my feild points do out to at least 40 yards!!!! You read right, FIXED Muzzy heads out to 40 friggen yards. Time to hit the dog track!!!
MORE proof? I don' t even match my carbon arrows " stiff side" (read most out of round side) when I pull all this off!!!!
MORE proof? I got my first ever 300 game (38x) with carbon arrows...and I didn' t even number them to find all the BAD ones!!!
MORE proof? (getting sick of this yet?) I even use (shhhh...don' t tell anyone) PUSH in nocks and threaded inserts!!!![:o][:o][:o]

OK... you get my point (I HOPE) fact remains, that the arrow is the LEAST important to tune. ARCHER is #1 Bow #2 arrows #3....by a LONG way.

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I would post but I' m too busy laughing... :D

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

That' s why i love you Art, You and I WILL always disagree (at least about carbon arrows, mech heads, and 80% let-off bows), but we CAN be civil and put SOME humor into all of this.
At

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Mahly13-

Wow, you must just runaround with a clover in your shoe or something huh?:D[&:]

Guess what! I used to shoot aluminums. 1916 X-7 blue, (long before the cobalt was re-intrroduced) and I shot them pretty well! Won a few State Championships, and even a World Title with those big old " honking heavy" things!

Switched to ACC' s. Amazingly, they flew just as good once tuned![:o] Won a few more...

Dropped off from competitive shooting for awhile, other than a few local 3D' s in the summer. Been four or five years now since I really did anything " big" . Next year I' m back at it however as I' m really missing it....

Built some Litespeed 500' s a couple months ago, threw a 3-60 uni and " G" nocks in the rear, and some 1.8 3D Durvanes, (blue of course;)) fletched right helical, and threw a 100grain CB point up front. Got my new Max 3000 Omega cam bow, tuned it and the arrows, and guess what?! My scores have jumped up almost 10-12 points per game this year! 12, 11, and X counts are significantly higher also! How can this be??[:o] I also easily qualified for the IBO Worlds, even tho I don' t shoot but once in a blue moon nowadays! Yep, carbon arrows sure do suck.....imagine that, I must be a true " wizard of tuning" or have extremely good luck also! LOL.[&:]:D;)

Art-

Sorry, I missed one of your posts way back, yes I agree with you---initially aluminum is straighter, no arguement. but they don' t STAY straight. If you have a straightener and like to diddle yes, you can keep them fairly consistent, but the problem is that the repeated bending and re-bending of them flexing and then being re-straightened on the straightener weakens the material and spine much quicker than carbon as carbon has much greater memory. You' ve been into the engineering field, so must know the flex tolerances of aluminum vs that of biased wrapped carbon fibers. Cyclic stress rates for aluminum are far below carbon.

I loved my old 1916 blues... another interesting point is that I used to shoot them at 70+ lbs! and I COULD. nowadays one cannot get a 1916 to spine out to anything over 52-55lbs, if they' re extremly lucky maybe 60. Hmmmm. Something fishy here also. Take a 1916 (or any aluminum for that matter) and find an older one of the same spine gradation. Give them a simple flex test---the older ones were much stronger. And it isn' t due to aging, they were rugged enough to shoot perfectly out of my High Country Supreme at 27" arrow (29" DL) and I think 72lbs when new. I really need to dig up some old charts to see what they were rated for back then, but I know it was much more than what we see today. More fuel to add to this fire, hehe;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I think alot of folks are bringing up a good point and it can apply to more pieces of equipment than just arrows. We all have a specific level of shooting ability at any given time in our lives. Sometimes our shooting ability is not up to the level of the equipment we use and in some cases it could be just the opposite.

Many times, when discussing various equipment/technical issues on the forums, I find myself asking " how much of a practical difference will ' x' make even though I know it is technologically or structurally superior?" . Is my shooting ability capable of demonstrating a quantitative or qualitative difference between the two pieces of equipment in question? etc... I definitely think that in the case of ICS carbons this statement applies.

I have no doubt that what Len, Jeff, Arthur, etc.. are saying is true. The tolerances, whether it be spine, straightness or weight, that some of the ICS carbons are being held at is probably pretty poor. However, from a practical standpoint, how much is this going to affect the accuracy level of the average archer?

The same type of case could be made regarding machined versus cast risers. From a practical perspective and for the average archer how much of a difference is there in the tolerances that each style of riser is held to? Is one stronger than the other? Will one promote better accuracy than the other? Does one weigh less than the other? etc.... These are mostly all practical characteristics that can be measured by " Joe Bowhunter" and are thus important to him.

Can the same be said of an arrow with a straightness tolerance of .0015 compared to one that might be listed as .003 but is actually .006?

I think that when the time comes that you can physically prove this to the average guy then it will become more important to the manufacturers. Until then......:(

Good topic of discussion though. This reminds me of that components thread from awhile back.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Hey Folks,

Please let me make a few things clear.

I was in no way implying that someone who shoots softball sized groups at 30 yards shouldn’t be hunting. I said that scenario was not a good indicator of shaft quality. However, I know that for myself and many other archers, the excitement of the hunt, added clothing and the rigors of the field tend to double the size of one’s groups. Now that softball is getting closer to a Kickball. I personally am not happy with that. That’s my own standard however, and I don’t hold anyone else to it.

I’m especially not happy if my equipment is limiting my accuracy in that way. Ask Rangeball about his experience w/ going from low-end carbons to A/C/Cs. He thought the problem was his own limitations w/ the mediocre groups he was getting out of his low-end carbons.

If I’m capable of shooting X” groups all day long at Y yardage and my arrows won’t allow me to do so, I’m doing myself, and the game I hunt a disservice.

And Yes, you can kill deer all day long w/ a low-end carbon arrow. Never said you couldn’t. What I am saying is that people are not getting what they pay for in cheap carbon shafts. The manufacturers are advertising X, Y, & Z but you are getting A, B, & C. You do get what you pay for w/ alum, A/C, and high end Carbons (for the most part). And until most archers/Bowhunters up their own game, the manufacturers are going to keep pushing the crap out there to sell. Once a carbon arrow is made..it’s made…they can’t do anything else with it. So they sell it, otherwise they go out of business from separating the wheat from the chaff.

And Black Frog, Yes! Spine consistency is KEY, and is the most CRUCIAL part of the problem here..not the straightness. If spine and weights are very consistent, then a moderate straightness (.008-.010 TIR or so) is not such big deal for most archery applications (except in Arthur’s case who is hurt even then because he requires such long arrows). But the cheap carbons not only lack decent straightness and weight tolerances, but they are all over the place for spine. You can have the straightest arrow in the world, but if it’s spined different it won’t group with the rest of the arrows in your quiver that are spined alike. W/ cheap carbons you are often buying what amounts to two or three different sizes of aluminum arrows in one dozen, though this is getting better every year.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

JeffB- Yup, I agree. That' s why I' d like to see manufacturers delivering some SPINE TOLERANCES within a dozen. Sure it' s nice to have straightness and weight tolerances, but if the spine is all over the place across a batch- the .001" straightness won' t be helping that much.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

But I wonder how many of those archers have accepted their level of shooting because/due to inferior arrows? What if with better arrows that baseball becomes a golfball? How many of them are really good shots masked by bad arrows?

Up until last fall I shot GT 5500 hunters. Advertised straightness of .006, I believe. When I finally got around to weighing them (something I wouldn' t have thought to do without some of you guys), they were all over the place. I never checked for straightness, and the 1/2 dozen all grouped within 4" out to 30 yards, good enough for hunting.

Simply listening to Jeff and buying ACCs shrunk my group in half overnight. That' s a HUGE drop and gives me much more margin for error when the shakes hit at the moment of truth...

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Which particular shafts do you all consider " high end" ICS carbons and which do you consider " low end" carbons? Gold Tip XTs were the first and only carbons that I have shot extensively. So, I would be intereseted in everyones opinion. I actually shot A/C/Cs for several years before switching to Gold Tips, however A/C/Cs are cost prohibitive for me anymore.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

All very true, Pinwheel. But at least aluminum gives me the option to diddle. With carbon and it' s much greater memory, you get what you get and there' s nothing you can do about it. Still might need to try using a heat gun on the things and see if my straightener will do any good with them. That goes a couple of steps beyond diddling though. :)

I can buy a couple of dozen aluminum arrows each year for about the same money I' d have to spend on comparable carbons, but with fewer headaches, better yield, and better consistency. Not to mention the fact that if I go from Texas to Maine, or Maine to Oregon, Oregon to Alaska, I can buy the same aluminum arrows in all those places that I can buy right here at home and they' ll be identical. If I shoot something like Easton Epics and go anywhere else and need arrows, I might not find anything but Nitro. Or GoldTip. Or Carbon Express... Too many different manufacturers, too many regional favorites, or even favorites from one shop to the next. Not at all identical, and probably will shoot and tune very differently from one brand to the next.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

That I definitely agree with. It would alot simpler if we had just one or two major carbon manufacturers as we do with aluminum. One of the reasons I switched from one brand of ICS carbon to another was because none of the local shops continued to carry what I was using at the time.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Since Jeff brought up the importance of spine, could someone tell me the proper way to determine spine?

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Spine consistency is KEY, and is the most CRUCIAL part of the problem here..not the straightness. If spine and weights are very consistent, then a moderate straightness (.008-.010 TIR or so) is not such big deal for most archery applications

AMEN to that and the fact that alot of archers are underspined due to the fact that they want to shoot 280 fps or faster , does not help them especialy this time of year when they start screwing on broadheads .