RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

For me personally I grade all-carbons as follows

Low End: Goldtip Hunters, PSE Dominators, Carbon Express Terminators (as well as some of the other CX shafting that Bass Pro & Cabelas put their names on), Beman ICS Ventures/Hawks, Carbon Impact Fat Shaft “Blue”, etc.

Mid Grade: Standard Carbon Express, Carbon Express Terminator Selects, Goldtip XT, Beman ICSH, Easton Buckeye/Epic/Evolution/Redline, PSE Extreme, CI Fat Shaft Yellow & Orange. Carbon Tech’s .005 series (whitetail, rhino, cheetah, etc)

High Grade: CX 3D Select, Goldtip 3D Pro, CI Fat Shaft Green & Gold, PSE Pro-force or whatever they call them…Carbon Tech XP series

Now some, like the mid grade Beman/Easton shafts I mentioned nearly push into the High grade category because they are very consistent for spine & weight in general. However, the straightness tolerances can still get out of whack in a dozen: A few may be in the .002 to .003 straightness range, and some others in the dozen might go as far as .010: most fall around the .004 range when cutting from both ends, but bare shafts can have some serious run-out.

And many times, the mid grade shafts really should be in a dozen of the low end shafts. I’ve had many ICSH, Standard CX and Goldtip XT’s that were pitiful. And I’ve had some of the high grades drop to the mid-grade specs too (though this has improved across the board it seems). That’s the whole problem really…it’s not the tolerances that bugs me so much, it’s that they are advertised as X, and you pay more money for X, but you still aren’t getting X, you are getting lower end Z. If someone is paying good money for a .400 spine class shaft that is supposed to be fairly straight (.003), and have a weight tolerance of +/- 3 grains, then that’s what they should get. Not a dozen that are spined from .410 to .385, have a10 to 15 grain weight variance, and run-out to .010+. And that’s more common than you think. While every manufacturer seems to have stepped up the QC for the Mid and high grade stuff, the low end shafts are often still this poor.

As has been stated though, straightness is not the most important factor. Spine consistency and weight is, not only from shaft to shaft, but from dozen to dozen, and that’s where A/C/C cannot be beat. I am absolutely fine w/ a .003 to .004 (per inch)/ TIR .006 to .008 shaft that is extremely consistent in weight and spine for hunting purposes. I don’t need .001. Problems is generally that you have to buy those high straightness grades to get the weight and spine consistency. If anyone has any of the old Easton catalogs/ tech manuals and/or archery almanac, for years they recommended AT LEAST a .004 per “ /.008 TIR reading for acceptable accuracy w/ hunting shafts tipped w/ broadheads. Since they began producing the Beman & other Easton IC carbons, that recommendation has disappeared from the catalog! .Hmmm..interesting to say the least. Beman doesn’t even advertise straightness tolerances. However if you call/fax them and are polite they will give you a general rundown (well, they did for me at least).

I do feel your pain though, A/C/C’s are VERY expensive…and getting more expensive every year, sadly. Due to recent serious financial constraints I am using a mid-grade all carbon (the Goldtip XT’s) for hunting this season, as I just cannot shell out the bucks for ACC’s (or anything else for that matter, I have my friend Matt/PA to thank for the Goldtips!). Once the financial difficulties pass (should be soon, by years end) I’ll be back to ACC’s, though I have been really impressed w/ Goldtips quality improvements, and they will be my first choice should my finances not improve as I expect them to (knocking Beman ICSH out of my # 1 mid-grade/price spot). These XT’s are very straight , and fairly well matched for weight. After tweaking the nocks (as I mentioned in my earlier post), I’ve been able to get some very good groups out to 40 yards with them, showing that spine match is pretty good too. There is hope yet, for all carbons! ! :D

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Art-

I hear ya, and you do have a point in that you do have the option to diddle should you want to. We all should have the option to diddle if we so choose.:D[&:];)

JeffB-

Great post and I' m pretty much in agreement with that one also, tho I do tend to swap a few of the shafts around from where you have them in order and how I feel they are as far as quality/tolerances are concerned.

Busy day, (I' m selling too many .006 arrows![&:]:D) More later as time permits. Good shooting,
Pinwheel 12

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Jeff,

I guess I should feel reasonably good about shooting the ICSHs then right?:)

Nice post. I would agree.

Just out of curiousity' s sake...where would you put the " skinny" carbons into that mix?

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Just a point to clarify, although it' s probably not important :)

My above post was actually a response to the last post on page 4. I completely missed page 5, so I didn' t even know Jeff referenced my story until just now. Freaky...

And true. With ACCs, I know I' m good from arrow to arrow.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Straightarrow: Are you looking at how to select the proper spine or how to measure spine???

Jeff: I totally agree with you about the Gold Tips. They have greatly improved their Hunter XT arrows over what they offered a year or two ago. The Hunters, now that' s another story. Then again, most in that ' low end' category leave a lot to be desired.

This thread started as Tune the Bow --- Tune the ARROW --- Tune the ARCHER. Given the three, the average archer is the hardest to control. If we (my PRO Shop) do our best to control the other two, we are doing what the archer pays us to do and have succeeded in controlling two of the three factors in the ' system' . If the archer wants us to ' Tune the ARCHER' , we will gladly oblige.

What we found was that we were wasting a lot of time tuning bows because customers were bringing us faulty arrows (most of which were bought elsewhere). Now, before we attempt to tune any bow, we check the arrow for straightness. If the spine is wrong, it will show in the tuning attempts. :)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I guess I have been fairly lucky with the carbons. I think it was about five years ago I bought some Gold tips. When I tested them on a spin tester I was shocked how bad they were. Needless to say I haven' t bought any since.

I used the Nitros for a while and I guess I really can' t complain about those. My source for those dried up so I quite using them.

I have shot the carbon express arrows for the last 3 or 4 years. I bought two dozen CX 400 shafts last summer and put them together for me and my son. Using the inserts that came with the shafts, factory nocks, and weight tubes, I dipped the last 10 inches of the shaft after cutting them to 29 inches.

After weeding out a couple that didn' t spin true and giving my son some, I still have a dozen left for my fall elk trip.

I put on a 125 grain broadhead and weighed each shaft. The following are the results:

3 shafts weighed 498 grains
1 shaft weighed 502 grains
1 shaft weighed 503 grains
2 shafts weighed 504 grains
1 shaft weighed 505 grains
2 shafts weighed 506 grains
2 shafts weighed 507 grains

As mentioned all of these shafts spin true and while I haven' t finished shooting each shaft out of this dozen (it has been windy) the ones I have shot provide excellent accuracy out of my rig.

Obviously there is a nine grain differential from top to bottom. I don' t shoot well enough to be able to tell the difference of nine grains, few do. Take out the three lightest shafts and there is only a five grain difference.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

AE: How much of that weight difference is B head related and how much is shaft? Have you weighed each head and shaft seperate? Then match say a light head with a heavy shaft, or the opposite to try to minimize the varience.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

In this case the answer is Zero. I put the same head on each shaft when I weighed them. So yes, the varience could be more or less depending on me matching broadhead weight to shaft weight. :)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

And did you weigh your dipping paint :) ??? 5 grains ain' t much.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Hey Arthur:

I think you have exactly the right concept for those pesky crooked carbons. I wouldn' t want to use a campfire or a blowtorch, but controlled heat, controlled straightening force, followed by a controlled cool down should do the trick. If the manufacturers or engineers could come up with something based on the same concept as staightening wooden arrows, crooked carbons could be straightened, and out of spec carbons could be reduced or eliminated without discarding all of those poor quality shafts. Don' t know what they could do about spine inconsistency though.:(

Pinwheel: I believe I got some of those discarded arrows off ebay. I had 6 Blackhawk Vapors, and 2 of them would not group with the rest no matter what. I thought that they were just poor quality arrows, but maybe the seller did just what you described. BTW, I have been buying from the local pro shop ever since this obvious mistake was made.;)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

What is meant? That straightness is not the most important factor; so if you can only have control over two of three primary factors (straight, spine, and weight) go with spine and weight and do not be concerned as to how straight the shaft is?

Just for kicks and giggles, let us ignore claimed specs at this time … you know….. the specs that some shooters base their choice on and pay their money for; I would like to hear the " Don' t be so concerned about straight shafts" crowd list their opinion as to how far out of tolerances an arrow can be and still be considered straight enough to use to shoot at live game with. Or are you suppose to pay your money for a product that advertises what you may not completely get, and then just dump the defective arrows or sell them on eBay?

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

C903.

I covered exactly what I meant by the quoted statement in my posts. In great detail as matter of fact. In addition I answered the questions in your second paragraph quite clearly.

I cannot speak for the others obviously.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Len, I was hoping to learn an easy way to measure the spine, or at least compare it between arrows in a batch. I' m guessing the arrow is suspended between two points, with a weight tied somewhere, and a deflection distance measured. I' d like a little detail on this. How is the defection measured accurately? What distance apart should the rests be, where the arrow is suspended from? How heavy a weight, or does it matter? It' s something I' ve never measured, and I' m very curious how my goldtip XT would do. They appear to be fairly consistant in weight and straightness, now I' m wondering about spine consistancy.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Many of the changes (advancements) in the bowhunting sport and gear have inarguably been good. Many have been indisputably bad. Now it appears that additional downgrading that negatively impacts on the necessary skills, gear selection, and the sport itself, has been introduced and enforced by the manufacturers and dealers, and is being kept alive and well by the " Gucci" crowd and the Styrofoam aficionados.

These days, it seems that there is a common mentality with many bowhunters that you are expecting too much and will be assigned to the " ridiculous imbecile" division if you demand that when you pay for a product the product be exactly as is claimed and demand more than " close is good enough." In other words; if you do not go with the clique, just go away.

The uninformed (novice) and the gullible have allowed themselves to be spoon-fed the manufacturer and dealer hype. The infamous 3D influence has introduced and deeply imbedded aspects and thinking that are not overall practical for bowhunting or for the average shooter. Intermingled with the ever-growing hype and confusion is now the celebrity status and influence and the " Bowhunting-is-not-fun-and you-ain' t-no-bowhunter-unless-you-can-constantly-kill-a-big buck-and-you-gotta-have-a-particular-brand and model-to-get-the-job-done" bulls...t propaganda. Then last but not least, the new and gullible bowhunter is intimidated and influenced by the " in vogue" and " keep up with Jones' " rubbish.

Nowadays, the personal preferences and demands of the individual bowhunter whom still knows what is utmost necessary, what is practical, and what is reliable for the close contact sport of deer hunting; is now considered by the " Gucci" crowd and the " techno-partisans" to be a dinosaur and out of the loop. The bowhunters no longer dictate, the manufacturers and dealers do. Most bowhunters now just seemingly abide by the rules that the manufactures and dealers have constituted and enforce, and the lowly bowhunter pays good money to play the game and to be a member in good standing in the " in crowd."

I guess I am a " dinosaur" and a contemptuous and ridiculous imbecile that is outside the " circle," because I still dictate what I want and what I will receive when I hand over mymoney. I expect and demand to receive exactly what I believe I am suppose to receive in accordance with personal preference and what is claimed and advertised.

If I walk into a shop and pay for a dozen of shafts that are supposed to be -/+ .0015, I demand to receive 12 shafts that are within the .0015 tolerances. Why? Because that is what the manufacturer advertises, and I have decided that is what I want. The advertisement (claim) does not say that " Some of the shafts may be within -/+.0015 straightness tolerances, but that some might not be; and you will receive what the dealer (shop) decides you will receive." It appears many dealers (shops) have made and are enforcing that unwritten rule, and too many buyers are allowing the dealers/shops get away with it.

I personally do not give a damn about the " friggin" Indians be able accurately shoot willow branches, or that most other shooters may not be able to shoot well enough to discern a shaft that is or is not within specs, or that some 3D shooter, using 3D tech-talk to describe his setup and to flaunt his credentials about being a world-class shooter. All that bunk has nothing to do with the bottom line; and the bottom line is this:

I am not a world-class shooter 3D or Field shooter. However, I am a BOWHUNTER. I am a good HUNTING shot. Because I choose to do so, and for the consideration of the animal I am hunting, I plan on keeping it that way. Therefore, if I believe that keeping my gear and myself tweaked beyond the " just get by" level, that is what I choose to do. That means; if I choose a shaft based on advertised tolerances, I expect to get exactly what the manufacturer claims I will get.

If I walk into a shop and ask for a dozen of shafts and demand that all 12 arrows be within the advertised tolerances, I do not want to hear that the shop can' t or won' t take the necessary steps to make sure that I am not paying for flawed shafts. I do not want to hear that my being selective will leave the residual junk for the other person. I don’t want to hear that I am expecting to much for the price; because that is not what the manufacturer states. I don’t want hear that I do not need arrows that are exceptionally straight. In fact, I don' t want to hear any dealers excuses or whining. I simply want what the manufacturer claims I will get with the model I select for the average suggested retail price.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Well, I personally witnessed PABowntr (Frank) seriously pounding the X ring this morning with his mid-grade carbon arrows. Maybe we do get a little too wound up about all of this.;)

As far as the trilogy goes I am in need of more tuning than my bow or the arrows.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

In all honesty, it was 3 arrows and it was SL. :)

Jeff' s explanation earlier could explain it though. As he said, some mid grade arrows can potentially be classified as high grade depending on the batch.....and vice versa.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I' m pretty sure Frank wasn' t using fixed blade broadheads to blast them X' s. ;)

Field points are one thing, fixed blade heads are quite another. To tell the truth, I' m thinking the rotten quality of -most- carbon arrows is why mechanicals are so popular. It' s not so much because people are too lazy to tune their bows, but they' ve got arrows that are difficult to impossible to tune with fixed blade heads.

From one dinosaur to another... Nice rant, C903.:)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

If you promise to pay for those cheap Bemans then I will gladly throw some Muzzys on them just for s and g. :D

Seriously though, good point. If I get a chance later today or tomorrow when I am down at the shop then I will throw some exposed blade broadheads on there and see what happens.