Are your broadheads NOT hitting the same spot as your field points?
10-28-2005, 02:25 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Martinsburg, WV
Posts: 3,215
Are your broadheads NOT hitting the same spot as your field points?
Ok, with all the questions about broadhead and field point impact being different, I figured I would post this up with hopes that a mod will pin it to the top. I realize everyone has to start at the beginning, and there is definitly no shame in asking about the tuning process. I think I will save this text to use each hunting season, as this will be relatively detailed, and it will take a while to type.
The first part of the tuning process involves your arrows.
1) Spin test your arrows. Set them intwo "V" shaped blocks of wood with the point against a peice of paper. Turn them slowly and then faster. Is there any wobble at all? If so, set the arrows aside and use them strictly for practice if they are carbons. If they are aluminums, heat up the insert and twist the broadhead a few times. Allow the epoxy to reharden and spin test again. I personally try to get all that I can out of a dozen arrows to spin correctly, however, Most will agree that 3 clean spinning broadhead tipped arrows is enough.
2) rotate your nocks so you are getting zero fletching contact.
And now, onto tuning your bow.
Sight your bow in at 10 yards, 20 and 30 with field points. (more if you plan on shooting farther)
1) shoot a field point tipped arrow into the bulls eye at 10 yards.
2) shoot a broadhead tipped into aiming at the same spot.
3) move the rest away from the broadheads impact. ie - if the arrow is high right, move the rest dow, left. You can also move the nock point, but make it follow the arrow. ie - high arrow = raise nock point
4) repeat step 1 and 2
5) after #4, if the broadheads and field points dont group together, repeat step 3
6) after you get the field points and broadheads grouping together, adjust your sight to bring them both back into the bull.
Now, back up to 20 yards and repeat steps 1 through 6.
After getting it dialed in at 20, I move back to 30 and repeat steps 1 through 6.
Remember that the farther from the target you get,the smaller theadjustments. This is why I prefer micro adjust rest. Once you get past 30 yards, its definitly beneficial to shoot 2 or3 rounds before making an adjustment.
Hope I'm not stepping on any toes, or coming across as ajerk,but I think this will definitly help alot of members, as this is one of the most asked questions of the technical forum. Hopefully one of the mods can pin this up to the top, and I'll save it on a floppy so I can repost it before each season.
The first part of the tuning process involves your arrows.
1) Spin test your arrows. Set them intwo "V" shaped blocks of wood with the point against a peice of paper. Turn them slowly and then faster. Is there any wobble at all? If so, set the arrows aside and use them strictly for practice if they are carbons. If they are aluminums, heat up the insert and twist the broadhead a few times. Allow the epoxy to reharden and spin test again. I personally try to get all that I can out of a dozen arrows to spin correctly, however, Most will agree that 3 clean spinning broadhead tipped arrows is enough.
2) rotate your nocks so you are getting zero fletching contact.
And now, onto tuning your bow.
Sight your bow in at 10 yards, 20 and 30 with field points. (more if you plan on shooting farther)
1) shoot a field point tipped arrow into the bulls eye at 10 yards.
2) shoot a broadhead tipped into aiming at the same spot.
3) move the rest away from the broadheads impact. ie - if the arrow is high right, move the rest dow, left. You can also move the nock point, but make it follow the arrow. ie - high arrow = raise nock point
4) repeat step 1 and 2
5) after #4, if the broadheads and field points dont group together, repeat step 3
6) after you get the field points and broadheads grouping together, adjust your sight to bring them both back into the bull.
Now, back up to 20 yards and repeat steps 1 through 6.
After getting it dialed in at 20, I move back to 30 and repeat steps 1 through 6.
Remember that the farther from the target you get,the smaller theadjustments. This is why I prefer micro adjust rest. Once you get past 30 yards, its definitly beneficial to shoot 2 or3 rounds before making an adjustment.
Hope I'm not stepping on any toes, or coming across as ajerk,but I think this will definitly help alot of members, as this is one of the most asked questions of the technical forum. Hopefully one of the mods can pin this up to the top, and I'll save it on a floppy so I can repost it before each season.
10-28-2005, 10:52 AM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Are your broadheads NOT hitting the same spot as your field points?
Don't most broad heads come with these instructions on the box? I know some of the ones I have bought did. I would also suggest shooting the hunting tipped arrow first, and then the field point. Unless you like slicing vanes and arrows in half when you start to get close. I have sliced a carbon arrow in half from nock to tip doing this. It gets expensive, shooting the fixed blade first works better.
Also keep in mind, just like paper tuning or bare shaft tuning you may have to do the opposite to get what you want. Depends on the type of release you have and the spine of your arrows.
And who said tuning your fixed blades to hit with your field points is the best tune for your bow? You may actually be detuning the bow in order to get them to do it. It's convenient, but is it really the BEST tune? Some say no.
I would be more concerned with how the arrows fly and group then I would if they hit the same spot. If you can get both, that is great. However I have seen tuning for this actually opens up your groups a little and effects the flight of the arrow some.
Just stirring the pot for you
Paul
Also keep in mind, just like paper tuning or bare shaft tuning you may have to do the opposite to get what you want. Depends on the type of release you have and the spine of your arrows.
And who said tuning your fixed blades to hit with your field points is the best tune for your bow? You may actually be detuning the bow in order to get them to do it. It's convenient, but is it really the BEST tune? Some say no.
I would be more concerned with how the arrows fly and group then I would if they hit the same spot. If you can get both, that is great. However I have seen tuning for this actually opens up your groups a little and effects the flight of the arrow some.
Just stirring the pot for you
Paul
10-28-2005, 11:51 AM
#3
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Posts: 2,981
RE: Are your broadheads NOT hitting the same spot as your field points?
i agree with paul.
that said, i just spent 2 hours adjusting my anchor and sight (flight was good and really it was just a change in the angle of my wrist in relation to the ground). i was out there in the heat with 2 different face masks, hats, gloves, jacket... whatever i may happen to wear during the next week at camp down in georgia. can't turn that hand back against the face with a fluffy face mask on and get the same impact point, but rotate it down so the wrist is about 30 degrees above parallel and the slot between my first 2 knuckles is tucked in my jaw a little, and i'm going to be able to stay warm in morning and shoot if given the opportunity with no worries. and with nothing on my face the impact is the same. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
always good to shoot with all your possible equiptment and clothing possibilities before getting out there.
that said, i just spent 2 hours adjusting my anchor and sight (flight was good and really it was just a change in the angle of my wrist in relation to the ground). i was out there in the heat with 2 different face masks, hats, gloves, jacket... whatever i may happen to wear during the next week at camp down in georgia. can't turn that hand back against the face with a fluffy face mask on and get the same impact point, but rotate it down so the wrist is about 30 degrees above parallel and the slot between my first 2 knuckles is tucked in my jaw a little, and i'm going to be able to stay warm in morning and shoot if given the opportunity with no worries. and with nothing on my face the impact is the same. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
always good to shoot with all your possible equiptment and clothing possibilities before getting out there.
10-28-2005, 07:47 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Martinsburg, WV
Posts: 3,215
RE: Are your broadheads NOT hitting the same spot as your field points?
Is it the best way to tune? Probably not. Is it adequate and easy to do for the beginner? Yep!
I personally have the luxery of an indoor range, and will bare shaft tune out to around 60 yards or so. But for the beginner to be able to just shoot his field points and broadheads together at ranges out to 30 to 40 yards with minimal headache, I feel is probably better than a lot of shops will set up a new hunter now. Some shops out there will definitly spend the time with the customer to get it set up right, but this post was mostly geared towords the newbies that dont know any better and buy their equipment off ebay, out of pawn shops, and online through bass pro, cabelas, or the like.
I personally have the luxery of an indoor range, and will bare shaft tune out to around 60 yards or so. But for the beginner to be able to just shoot his field points and broadheads together at ranges out to 30 to 40 yards with minimal headache, I feel is probably better than a lot of shops will set up a new hunter now. Some shops out there will definitly spend the time with the customer to get it set up right, but this post was mostly geared towords the newbies that dont know any better and buy their equipment off ebay, out of pawn shops, and online through bass pro, cabelas, or the like.
10-29-2005, 11:49 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern PA USA
Posts: 1,398
RE: Are your broadheads NOT hitting the same spot as your field points?
Good post with good advice. I agree with Paul though, that sometimes you must move the rest in the opposite direction as seems logical to get the results you want. I also think the process seems easier with some bows than others. If you can bare shaft tune the bow to shoot the arrow straight, broadhead arrows should fly well with adequate vane control. I know some people that shoot very well still claim that if you set up to shoot BH and FP together, it is a "compromise" or "halfway" tune. I can't think of any reason why a broadhead tipped arrow would shoot/fly/group any better than if it comes off the bow straight and clean. If so, the only thing that shoud affect it would be arrow misalignment or inconsistency. If the broadhead tipped arrow is coming off straight and clean and flying true, what would make a field tip arrow not fly in pretty much the same place? I'm not talking about minute differences in impact caused by FOC differences or drag from broadhead blades, but being a few to several inches off. I know that many 3D/target guys claim better accuracy when an arrow is coming off the bow with "attitude" and that a straight arrow is like throwing a knuckleball. Not sure I agree, but I can see the point. If you really have a bow tuned to shoot broadheads well, field points of equal weight should follow, within reason. Tuning FPs to the utmost accuracy may be a different game though.
10-29-2005, 09:15 PM
#6
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Altadena CA
Posts: 494
RE: Are your broadheads NOT hitting the same spot as your field points?
I've never had much luck with the "move the rest" method. With 8 bows over 10 years and 4 different BHs, the BHs still fly about 5" left of FPs at 40 yds. It's easier to just move the sight when I head for the woods.
10-30-2005, 09:25 AM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Are your broadheads NOT hitting the same spot as your field points?
The reason they can be different is because of spine and normally the broad head is a bit longer than the field point.
Field points are VERY forgiving when shot. It is not hard for the fletching to correct any flight problems because there is not as much resistance. When you have fixed blades up front and the arrow flexes they may take a different path to the target than a field point would because it has no steering forces in the front of the arrow.
This is why good FOC and adequate fletching are more forgiving with fixed blades. Fixed blade heads, especially big ones are more sensitive to spine and tuning than a field point is. You can shoot amazingly well with field points and a really out of tune bow if you have good form. Don't try it with a broad head though.
I bare shaft tune as well most of the time. If I could get bareshafts to group well at 60 yards there is now way in heck I would adjust anything when I put broad heads on it. Unless there was a grouping problem for some reason. If you are going to hunt I would say the best method would be to walk back tune or group tune with fixed blades. This would ensure that you the best possible arrow flight with your hunting set up. Field points are forgiving enough that they should still group really well. If the impact point was little different I would just live with it myself. As long as it wasn't really far off.
They really are two different arrow configurations and shouldn't be expected to impact in the same exact spot. Sometime they do, sometimes they don't. If I can get them reasonably close I am happy. Like say a few inches apart at 20 or 30 yards. If you can't get them dead on together at 20 or 30 yards I wouldn't pull your hair out trying to do it. Chances are you either don't have enough fletching, FOC or your spine could be better.
When I first started I thought they needed to be right together as well. I have learned a lot in the past several years though.
Paul
Field points are VERY forgiving when shot. It is not hard for the fletching to correct any flight problems because there is not as much resistance. When you have fixed blades up front and the arrow flexes they may take a different path to the target than a field point would because it has no steering forces in the front of the arrow.
This is why good FOC and adequate fletching are more forgiving with fixed blades. Fixed blade heads, especially big ones are more sensitive to spine and tuning than a field point is. You can shoot amazingly well with field points and a really out of tune bow if you have good form. Don't try it with a broad head though.
I bare shaft tune as well most of the time. If I could get bareshafts to group well at 60 yards there is now way in heck I would adjust anything when I put broad heads on it. Unless there was a grouping problem for some reason. If you are going to hunt I would say the best method would be to walk back tune or group tune with fixed blades. This would ensure that you the best possible arrow flight with your hunting set up. Field points are forgiving enough that they should still group really well. If the impact point was little different I would just live with it myself. As long as it wasn't really far off.
They really are two different arrow configurations and shouldn't be expected to impact in the same exact spot. Sometime they do, sometimes they don't. If I can get them reasonably close I am happy. Like say a few inches apart at 20 or 30 yards. If you can't get them dead on together at 20 or 30 yards I wouldn't pull your hair out trying to do it. Chances are you either don't have enough fletching, FOC or your spine could be better.
When I first started I thought they needed to be right together as well. I have learned a lot in the past several years though.
Paul
10-30-2005, 04:54 PM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Are your broadheads NOT hitting the same spot as your field points?
A good effort, but:
1) Correct arrow shaft selection is omitted/overlooked?
2) An arrow has to be straight moreso than just at the point?
3) Bad form can be devastating?
4) Does the bow really 'fit' the shooter?
There is so much to tuning that is related to other factors. That's why I preach "The Tuning Trilogy: Tune the bow, tune the arrow, tune the archer."
1) Correct arrow shaft selection is omitted/overlooked?
2) An arrow has to be straight moreso than just at the point?
3) Bad form can be devastating?
4) Does the bow really 'fit' the shooter?
There is so much to tuning that is related to other factors. That's why I preach "The Tuning Trilogy: Tune the bow, tune the arrow, tune the archer."
10-31-2005, 05:31 AM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Are your broadheads NOT hitting the same spot as your field points?
Ditto to what Len said.
To get really good broadhead flight, so much more has to be considered. Some guys will never get broadheads impacting with field tips, simply because they impart a torque that insures that they won't. There has to be at least another dozen reasons why some hunters will not be able to accomplish this. You need to pay attention to spine (a lot of attention), to arrow straigtness, to arrow spine consistancy, to arrow length, to exact draw weight, type of fletching, FOC, etc.
To my way of thinking, tuning a bow is simple compared to tuning an arrow. And if the archer is not tuned, then the other two become even more important. Nothing against your tip, it's just not complete.
I would vote (if I had a vote) to have Len's trilogy "stickied" to the top of the tech forum.
To get really good broadhead flight, so much more has to be considered. Some guys will never get broadheads impacting with field tips, simply because they impart a torque that insures that they won't. There has to be at least another dozen reasons why some hunters will not be able to accomplish this. You need to pay attention to spine (a lot of attention), to arrow straigtness, to arrow spine consistancy, to arrow length, to exact draw weight, type of fletching, FOC, etc.
To my way of thinking, tuning a bow is simple compared to tuning an arrow. And if the archer is not tuned, then the other two become even more important. Nothing against your tip, it's just not complete.
I would vote (if I had a vote) to have Len's trilogy "stickied" to the top of the tech forum.
