MoWeim

Hey Mustad - help me out. Not sure I understand what you mean about better manners. Can you be more specific?

mustad

Manners can describe a variety of things, but what I was referring to was a dog's tendancy to crowd a bird. Dogs learn very quickly that planted birds don't flush. Most of the test and trial venues; not all; use planted birds. There is an adjustment period for a dog that hunts and tests to get used to wild birds. The first few he will crowd and the bird will flush. He learns quickly to back off and be more cautions. A dog that doesn't test, but just hunts will know this because he hasn't been exposed to planted birds. A dog that just tests and trials will likely not learn these manners and will often lose whatever manners they are born with.

Another expression of manners is how the dog behaves on a bird that has moved off. A mature dog that hunts knows the game. You will often see this manifest itself in a way where the dog will circle around the bird and work back in towards you and pin the bird down. Dogs that solely test and trial will not learn this.

This is not to say that you can't do both. You can and it's a ton of fun. Personally, I prefer the testing games (JGHV, NAVHDA) over trials because the dogs that do well suit my hunting style better. But unless you have a 12 month hunting season, these additional venues give you great opportunities to take the dog to another level with a slight adjustment period once the season begins again.

MoWeim

Gotcha, now.
I agree about the crowding birds. Planted birds will sure encourage a dog to creep.

4evrhtn

I run GSP's in AKC Hunt Tests. I also train with peopkle who run field trials. My opinion is this...If you want to hunt from a horse than field trial is the way to go. If you like seeing your dog work at a pace you can keep up with such as in most real hunting scenarios than the Hunt Tests are more in line with the type of hunting your average hunter does. If you hunt pheasants in PA it is pointless to have a field trial dog. Half the time the dog is out of sight and on point without you knowing it if you don't have a tracking collar. A hunt test dog is typically a closer working dog which covers the area thoroughly before moving on. A field trial dog blitzes along the hedge rows and field borders easily 100 yds ahead of you and in many cases much further out. They are trained to find A bird quickly. A hunt test dog is trained to search for all birds in closer range. I prefer to have a dog find more birds with less walking on my part, that is why i run AKC Hunt Tests. NAVHDA testing is more in depth and the standard is more strict. I will be running in those after I have my male to his Master title hopefully next spring.

mustad

I have never run an AKC hunt test as my breed of choice (Pudelpointer) is not recognized by the AKC. However, I have gunned at a number of AKC & CKC events. I wouldn't say NAVHDA is stricter than AKC Hunt tests. I would say NAVHDA is more consistent. One of the problems, in my opinion, with the AKC Hunt tests is that there is only one judge. Also, once somebody becomes a judge they will always be a judge. In a NAVHDA test, and JGHV for that matter; there are three judges. A judge must run at least one dog in a test every three years and attend a judges workshop at least once every three years. This combined with the fact that there are three judges results in a very consistent application of the rules no matter where you run your dog. In AKC, or even CKC, you are somewhat dependent on the knowledge of the single judge that is evaluating your dog, which creates inconsistencies. I think the standard that is being evaluated against is pretty consistent though. Just mho...

4evrhtn

Maybe stricter wasn't the best word.... To acheive the equivalent of a Master Level for NAVHDA the dog is required to be more "versatile" and must perform more requirements- retreiving is more demanding and working in water for example.

AKC Hunt tests are judged by 2 judges and the score is averaged. The dog must receive a 5 or better in all categories in order to pass. If the Dog receives a 10 in Hunting, Bird Finding, Trainability, Pointing and Honoring and then receives a 4 in retreiving the dog fails. Also 2 dogs are run in each brace in order to prove honoring and steadiness to shot and retrieve by the other dog.
I know anyone who passes a dog through Masters can judge Jr.,Sr. or Master. In other words they can judge up to the level that they themselves have had a dog complete successfully. They must apprentice under another judge and take classes as well. I am not sure about renewal requirements.
I do agree some judges have their favorite breeds and some may be lenient when they shouldn't be for the wrong reasons. Once gunner is at his Master I will be doing the NAVHDA testing because it is more demanding in terms of what the dog must do in order to acheive their utility award

mustad

Wow. You're right on the judges. There are supposed to be two. I wonder how the events I was at got away with just one judge. That's wierd. Thanks for clarifying that.

4evrhtn

It sounds like some Handlers and their dogs received some ribbons illegally at those events. Those hunt tests were definitely not by the book. Go figure, some clubs do what they want in spite of the rules.

A group of friends and I are considering starting a new All Pointing Breed Club in Schuylkill County, Pa. Reason- too many cliques and bending of the rules at other clubs. We intend to enforce the rules and judge based on the standard as you mentioned. And Furthermore, We Don't Care How Many Best Of Show Awards your English Pointer has, If he can't hunt he won't pass!! :]

JW

Then take a look at NAVHDA - they are formed to help train you to train your own versatile poitning dog and the tests they hold try to simulate actual upland and waterfowl situations you might run into.

Qulaify a dog in NAVHDA's Utility test and you have 90% more animal than anyone else out there! You can run the dog as much as you want and the judgement is set against a STD and not dog vs dog.

JW

4evrhtn

I will be doing NAVHDA as soon as my Boy passes his AKC Master, then it's on to the tougher testing.