bigcountry

BigBob, I agree that Varget and 4064 should be great. But I wouldn't shy away from 4350. Some people was telling it was too slow for a semi that I could do damage to my extractor. But most factory ammo seem to run 4350 type powder for 270 and 30-06. And alot of people out there don't reload.

herman

Haven't shot my 30/06 rem 742 in years but I shot IMR 4064 52.5 grs and a Hornady 150 gr SP in mine.Lyman 45th edition gives this as the accurate load and it has been a very accurate one for me too.
It gives factory duplicate loads : 4350 58 grs
4064 51.5 grs
It gives less pressure using 52.5 grs than 51.5 grs of 4064.
Used to shoot it a lot and hunted with it most of the time too and never had it to jam.Need to get it out and shoot up the reloads I have for it they are getting a little old now.Shot my biggest and made my longest shot on a deer with this rifle.

Briman

Comercial autoloaders are designed to shoot anything that you can buy of the shelf. AS long as you don't go beyond maximum pressures you aren't going to hurt anything. The only common autoloader that I know of that you really have to limit your loads and powders on is the M1 garand, its oprod is its achille's heel, it will bend or break if the pressure curves aren't correct. This is mainly because the gas plug is not adjustable, but even the garand can be updated with an adjustable plug to be able to shoot commercial loads. Most american autoloaders are self adjusting especially hunting rifles because lets face it most hunters aren't necessarily too gun savvy, some european autoloaders have a manual gas adjustment system where you adjust the amount of gas bled off so that there's just enough left to consistantly cycle the action.

BigBob .30-06

Briman,

I don't want to start a argument, but some where you have been given some information that is not quite up to snuff. Any semi-auto rifle that is gas operated has to deal with the same engineering problem. These rifles are designed to function within a narrow "gas port pressure" levels. The critical time is the instant that the bullet clears the gas port as it travels through the bore. Powders who's burn rate can create problems. Fast burning powders reach their peak pressure level before the bullet reaches the gas port. At the time the bullet clears the port, the pressure levels are already dropping. This results in higher than prudent pressure levels, and yet still not cycle the action due to low pressure levels at the time the bullet clears the gas port.
The use of powders that have to slow a burnrate develops its pressure peak much later than the fast powders. This has the potental to have a gas port pressure peak after the bullet has cleared the port. This will result in the action being subjected to higher than designed pressure levels. The action is cycled with higher than designed pressure levels and very possibly stress the action and result in damage. While it is possible to load different weight bullets, it is always necessary never to over look the demands of the resulting gas port pressure.

This is the situation as I understand it. I've been wrong before and will be wrong again. So if I'm wrong this time, I sure would like to know what the correct answer is.

.358,
I hope that this will illustrate the need for proper powder selection. You can expect to loose somewhere between 100 and 150 fps from velocities obtained in a bolt action rifle. This is the cost of using gas to cycle the action. I hope that this is of some help. Good luck and God Bless.

Briman

BigBob .30-06- What you said makes sense.
Not sure if higher port pressures will damage a modern rifle though, haven't heard of any rifles breaking because of this, and I assumed that modern rifles have pressure relief and/or buffers engineered in to address this.

halcon

BigBob you have it exactly right ,the wrong powder is the biggest problem with reloading for a auto that I know of .

BigBob .30-06

Briman,

Glad that I didn't upset anyone. That sure wasn't my intent. One of the nice things about this site is that the members are mature enough to discuss disagrements and attempt to learn from one another.

The Remington rifle doesn't have a buffer system. Gas drives the bolt to the rear and a spring drives it forward again. Unfortunately, I learned that the wrong powder can dsamage a Rem 742 the hard way. I picked one up years ago, when they were new on the market. I had a whole lot to learn back then, and sites like this wern't even a dream. Since I had had good luck with Du Pont IMR 4350, I tried it again. It is quite possible to really mess that rifle up, big time, with the wrong powder. Thank God I had learned something by the time I bought a 7400. H-4895 worked fine.
Between the 7400 and a 700, I learned a little about velocity loss due to the gas operation of the 7400. I got the impression that W-760 is to slow for use in a 7400, and IMR-3031 is the quickest burn rate powder that should be used.

Nice visiting with you. Good luck and God Bless.

firstshot

BigBob .30-06, halcon, Briman, .358

I was doing a search on "Game Kings" and came across this thread. I just recently got a BAR 30-06 and had the very same question about "slow burning" powders and Semi-Auto's as I had read so much about it on various fourms, including this one, with the general consensus being.......use "medium" burn rate powders only!

I was planning to load some Sierra 180Grn Game Kings and someone had recommended trying IMR-4831, which definitely is NOT in the "Medium" burn rate category. In fact, it's a little slower than IMR-4350 & H-4350. I've shot a lot of IMR-4350 in my gun, BUT, just to be on the safe side, I called Sierra's Ballistic Services department (1-800-223-8799). I told them I was going to be loading the 180grn Game King and wanted to know if using the slower IMR-4831 could potentially damage my BAR. In short, I was told that the Browning BAR could handle any powders listed in the various load manuals as long as you stay within the recommended Min / Max loads. The Browning BAR is designed to take it!

So....I loaded em up! Sierra 180grn Game Kings on top of IMR-4831 with Remington brass & Fed 210 primers.

Went to the range with them today and am happy to say that......

My 30-06 BAR Really Likes 180Grn Sierra Game Kings & IMR-4831!!!

I just got to say....WOW!

Started with 52Grns of IMR-4831 and worked up to 57.5Grns in .5Grn increments. (12 Groups @ 3 shots each @ 100 Yds) Out of the 12 groups, 7 groups were sub MOA with the smallest being 0.511" CTC. There were 3 flyers in 3 different groups which were definitely me, and not the gun. The other two MOA+ groups were the 52.0 & 52.5 grn groups.

Overall average group size (including the flyers) was 1.092"CTC. Excluding the groups with the 3 flyers (which I know you can't really do) the overall average was 0.821"CTC.

GRN----CTC
52.0---1.235
52.5---1.157
53.0---0.511
53.5---1.596*
54.0---2.823*
54.5---0.829
55.0---0.646
55.5---0.846
56.0---0.761
56.5---0.620
57.0---1.300*
57.5---0.781
-------------
AVG:---1.092

(* Includes 1 flyer)

Gota say I sure am happy to see this gun shooting sub MOA. I had read a lot of folks saying that their BAR's shoot sub MOA, but I just wasn't getting there with the Nosler Ballistic Tips. Tried both the 180 & 165 grn BT's and just couldn't break that 1" mark. Of course, those were the only 2 bullets I'd tried prior to the Game Kings and with both of those I was using IMR-4350.

The BAR cycled with no problems what-so-ever using the IMR-4831 and now that I've found at least one excellent hunting load, I can take my time and try out some other bullets / powders. I've never owned, shot, or reloaded for a Remington Semi-Auto so I would NOT even begin to say anything one way or the other as to the use of slower burning powders in that gun. But as far as MY 30-06 BAR is concerned, the Sierra Game Kings and the IMR-4831 are keepers.

firstshot