afp

That is an excellent group for a hunting rifle and evidence of good load development and shooting. However, you do understand that group--even if it was a 5-shot group--would be about dead last in a little BR match?

Now maybe if you had a slow twist barrel..........

afp

Since we're showing out of the ordinary groups, how about this?



M-70 Classic in 416 Rem shooting 400 grain Swift A-frame factory ammo. Three shots, 100 yds, .272"

jeepkid

First, yeah I know that wouldn't be a good BR group, just wanted to post my little info on fast twist barrels shooting lighter bullets...thats with ZERO load development by the way.

Anyway, why do you think you shot better groups at 1000 then you did at 100? Thats one thing I've been wondering about lately...

afp

Of course, I never said fast twist barrels wouldn't shoot good groups in certain application, my point was when you are trying for the ultimate in accuracy you take every advantage, which means spinning the bullet as slowly as possible but still keeping it stable. This doesn't make a huge difference, but it is one piece of the accuracy game. BTW, I twist all my hunting rifles on the fast side. then again, I don't expect them to shoot competition rifle groups either.

No one seems to have a very good answer on why we often see better MOA at longer ranges. Many think it's because of bullet wobble and liken it to what happens with a football. Sometimes a football is thrown and it wobbles, then settles down after a few yards and spins wobble free. If a bullet were to do that it might explain what happens. The idea being the wobble causes an intial departure from it's flight path, and once that initial departure happens the bullet settles down and flies true.

afp

Well, I have seen a lot of strange things with long range shooting. Regardless, I didn't say I hit the 12x12 gong, I said I usually hit close to it (within minute of whitetail), and that is the honest truth--and again I'll say it was suprising to me as well. Now I was using a purpose built 1000 yd BR rifle from a bench. Bullet BC was around .616 after I trimmed the metplats. Also a load with an ES of 11 helps. A big factor was that conditions were most likely similar between the last match and the next match.

I do not have, nor have I ever held to, the theory that lower BC bullets are better for 1000 yds. The thing I HAVE repeatedly said is that super high BC bullets often don't provide the least wind drift and often don't shoot well. That idea is not based on me shooting one or two groups, it is a well established fact in long range competition shooting--as well as what I saw first hand during the time I was competing.

I know many long range hunters don't care what LR BR guys do, and I don't understand that. By adapting some of the LR BR techniques they'd shoot their rifle more accurately......just as using Silhouette shooter techniques will improve one's offhand or shooting Highpower will improve one's ability to wrap into a sling.

When Tom shot that group we all thought it was a fluke, since it was so much smaller than the existing record. Then he goes out and sets another incredible record in heavy gun. That ended our personal incredulity. Tom is an amazing shooter. At least we agree on that.

I too didn't start 1K BR shooting for fame, and I didn't even know that would be a possible motivation until you brought it up. I simply wanted to become a proficient, consistent, long range shooter. I had shot plenty of one off tiny groups, groups that wouldn't repeat. I wanted to learn how to shoot small groups at long range all the time. Nothing teaches you to do that better than 1K BR. NBRSA 1K BR also competes for score, and after a while I wanted both good groups AND good scores. My best--which at the time tied the world record, was a pair of 50-3Xs on a 7" ten ring and a 3" X-ring.

I was never interested in tactical shooting and reluctantly was drawn into a couple of Highpower matches. I really wanted to do Silhouette, because in my opinion they are the most accomplished shooters in the world.

What I learned from compeition shooting is it requires a much higher level of proficiency than other kinds of shooting. It requires better equipment, better discipline, and better handloading techniques. The one exception to that rule is the kind of shooting that you do in your long range hunting. That requires a level of effort similar to competiton shooting.

afp

I have not boasted about my knoweledge, I have demonstrated it. I have not made empty boasts, I have showed pictures of my groups and have described the results of my shooting.

I have tried to find common ground and exchange knowledge with everyone here. My assumption is that we call all learned from each other. I am willing to agree to disagree. However, you want no part of that. That is YOUR problem, not mine.

What can I tell you to help you be more successful in taking a deer at a mile? Not knowing what you know, and IF you were willing to listen; I'd tell you to sort your bullets by ogive and uniform the metplats. I'd tell you to get an Oehler 35 chrono and make sure your load has extreme spreads of the low teens or less. I'd asume you're already running a Jewell set at 1.5 oz and using a custom BR action with a high end scope, like Nightforce, US Optics, etc. I'd also assume you have the balance of your rifle set up propelry, because I'm sure you know that improper balance can cause vertical stringing.

I'd tell you (again) that there is a trade off between BC and velocity, and the highest BC bullet doesn't always win. Dozens of 1K BR shooters, including me, have proven otherwise. All you have to do is look at match results to see that. Crud, just go ask that question on the 1K Forum on BR Central. There is a reason the 187 to 220 grain bulelts win way more matches and shoot smaller groups than the 240 grainers (which are hadley used anymore).

But don't worry about me challenging your "knowledge" any more. I am just too old to tip toe around someone's fragile ego......................