driftrider

I'm curious about the Berger match grade VLD hunting bullets that are available. According to Bergers website, they are appropriate for deer sized game, but also are said by their site to fragment extensively on impact. I've thought about picking up a box of these to give them a try in my 257 Wby (the .257cal 115grain VLD Hunting version). I'm pretty happy with the accuracy I've seen with the 100 grain Tipped TSX, but they are hard to find and expensive.

I'm wondering if anyone has on-game experience with these bullets.

Thanks,

Mike

Big Z

I've seen them on TV on that long range hunting show...whatever it's called. They penetrate a few inches and more or less 'explode' in the vitals, causing so much damage inside, that the animal is instantly disabled and quickly dead from how I understand it. The 25s aren't a problem, but with the larger bullets, the longer bering surface requires a faster-than-standard twist to stabilize them. That would be my concern trying the 180s in my 7mmRM. The folks over at Long Range Hunting seem to love this bullet for its accuracy and on-game performance, so I wouldn't be afraid to try them out. Right now, I have enough standard bullets to shoot I'm sticking with them for awhile. I'll probably try them out before too long in my 7mmRM on some long range targets with either the 140s or 168s.
Berger's brought up using the G7 standard projectile to calculate ballistics more accurately than the regular G1 ballistic coefficients most bullet manufacturers use. So, I got some software that I can do this with. The calculations are still impressive on their long range energy retention and trajectory, which can help reduce problems from errors in range estimation.

afp

Bergers have a more accurate BC? Hmmm. When I shot 1000 yd BR from 2005 to 2007, Berger BCs were understood to be definitely oversated. Now I seemed to get pretty close when I used Sierra's velocity boundries and applied them to the Bergers, and Sierra's approach was much more conservative. Then again, Sierra actually measures their BCs so you'd expect them to be very close, with the biggest difference being the barrel they are shot out of.

And by all means, don't use the 180s in a 7. We had a guy try a 7, and the 168s shot better than the 180s. Of course, neither came close to the 30s. The winningest rifles were 30 cals, and next were the 6.5s. Although the 7s spec out well on paper, they just don't seem to hold up in actual conditions. My guess is those extra long bullets are wobbly, and a wobbly bulley has a crappy actual BC regardless of what it is on paper. It seems that BCs much over th .630s just don't shoot so well. And if it isn't windy, even lesser BCs are better.

Big Z

They seem to have a good rep on LRH. I would expect the BCs using the G1 standard projectile (short, flat based, spire point) to get more and more inaccurate the higher (for caliber) they were. Just seems like that's how it would be with the bullet becoming less and less similar to the G1SP. But the G7 standard projectile (long, boat tailed, spire point) being used as a comparison is a more accurate BC for bullets similar to this design. You can search online for G7 calculators. The higher BC bullets would always get my vote for long range shooting, cause it's always windy here The longer bullets just need a faster twist to be stabilized correctly, which is why most rifles won't favor the heavier bullets, especially when they are long match bullets with high BCs. Right?

Sling

Here is a neck shot exit hole from a 30-06 at about 80 yards with a 168-grain VLD.

It really did not do anything that you probably have not seen before.

jeepkid

Hey Mike, did you get my PM?

driftrider

Yep. It certainly makes an impressive hole! I was pleased to see that it made a (rather gruesome) EXIT wound. My real concern was that at 3300 fps the bullet would just totally explode on impact like a varmint bullet and the frag wouldn't get deep enough to kill quickly. I've seen a few varmint bullet wounds on deer that look like someone scooped out a 3-4" wide and 3" deep chunk of muscle, but didn't go through the ribcage. Looks like the Berger will get into the vitals ok, and that's what I'm looking for.

Mike

afp

It's not a matter of just adding twist to stabilize the extra long bullets. If it was, ever 1000 yd BR competitor would be using bullets with the highest BCs they could find. They aren't. Most of those super long bullets don't shoot well--at least when you apply 1000 yd BR accuracy standards. The 7mm 180s and .308 240s are not the bullets that win matches, even in windy Tucson.

Further, the faster you spin a bullet, the more chance you have of seeing flight patch departures based on the lonitudinal axis not being in line with the rotational center of gravity. That's why target shooters tend to use the slowest twists that will properly stabilize the bullet.

I'm sure the G7 is a good tool for predicting BC, IF the bullets aren't wobbling when they exit the muzzle. However, the actual BC of each bullet will vary based on the barrel it's shot from, and is often (mostly?) not based on what the paper calculations show.

Then again, you may need to be shooting 3-4" 5-shot groups at 1000 yds for this effect to be noticable. In a LR hunting rifle it probably doesn't matter as much.

Big Z

Seems like all the LR match-grade bullets I see are boat tailed and heavy-for-caliber. I don't get why you wouldn't want that for long-range shooting. If 2 bullets are pushed to the same pressure, the one with less wind drift seems more practical (and has a higher BC). That would be a boat-tail, not a flat-based. Even though they're more sensitive to seating depth, I would assume any established LR shooter would have their loads COAL perfected for their combo.

Bullet yaw...I'll quote Bryan Litz: "For all practical purposes,
there is no difference in effective BC for bullets due to various levels of Sg (gyroscopic stability)."

Now, I'm learning, which is why I'll state something countering what you're saying in hopes of a rebuttle that would make me understand why what I'm saying is wrong.

afp

I know what the theory is, but in practial application theory sometimes falls short. Long for caliber bullets with reasonably high BCs, yes. Exceptionally high BCs, no.

The guys shooting 1K BR back East, when shooting 30 cals, like the 187 Bib. The 187 Bib has a measured BC of .520 and a calculated BC (like Berger does) of .550. The guys back East say that bullet outshoots most other 30 cal bullets, regardless of the chambering it's shot from--but realize they have a LOT less wind than we do out West. The 187 Bib can also be stabilized in a 1x13 twist barrel.

In the West, the 220 SMK with a measured BC of .629, or the 210 Berger and JLK with calculated BCs of around .640, seem to beat everyone else.

Please notice I haven't mentioned the 240 grain Sierra Matchking as being a winning 1000 yd BR bullet. Aside from the very fast twist is needs to stabilize and the subsequent potential accuracy issues that causes, AND besides the wobble issue these extra long bullets seem to have; the increase in BC provided by the 240 SMK cannot overcome it's velocity loss. That's why you see a lot of 187 to 220 grain, 30 cal bullets in 1K BR. The least amount of wind drift is usually found with the 187 to 220 grainers, regardless of the chambering.

BC is indeed a very important factor in picking a long range bullet, but it is not the only factor. I prurposely reduced the BCs of my 220 SMKs by trimming the bullet noses so they were all a uniform length and shot smaller groups than with the higher BC, untrimmed bullets.

When you get all this stuff right, you start shooting like I show in the pics. They show the first time I set the club record. The average of those three 5-shot groups was 4.91," and a couple months later I shot a 4.71" agg. I also won every match when I shot from first relay, and I shot small group of the match most of the time even if I was shooting in the windy second relay. I tied the NBRSA world record for score a couple times, and shot five "Official Screamer" groups--which is 5-shots at 4" or less. My best group was 3.5."

To repeat, BC ain't everything............................