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Little tip to eliminate runout

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Little tip to eliminate runout

Old 01-21-2007, 09:34 AM
  #1  
bigcountry
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Default Little tip to eliminate runout

After years of reloading, and fighting bullet runout, I think I have found the solution. I have bought competition seaters, neck turning kits, and multiple dies and different brands of shell holders. Some calibers, I fight runout every time, some not at all.

I have found the culprit in my setup. The shellholder. These shell holders are made with slop to accomidate many calibers. That slop is killing me. My usual setup for bullet seating includes squaring the dies, and turning 3 times during the bullet seat little at a time. I usually get 30% of the loaded rounds with runout >.005", which is unacceptable to me. When questioning loads or working up loads, why not take out another possible component I say.

Ok, I was watching my rim of the brass relative to its position in the shell holder. If I just lower my ram handle to touch the bullet seater plug with the bullet, and bounce back out, I notice the rim, of the brass moving over in the shell holder .005 or more from the end of the shell holder. So when I put brass in and shove it in the holder and push a bullet in, I am shoving it in cockeyed cause of play in the shell holder.

So here was my experiement. I loaded 20 7mm-08 rounds by doing the regular lay the bullet in the shell holder to its extent, and seating the bullet turning 1/3 turn 2 times during the seating.

I then loaded 20 7mm08 rounds a little different. I wouldraise my ram until I could feel the bullet hit the seater plug, I would thenlower my ram, and you could see the brass being centered in the shell holder by a very small amount, I would then push in the bullet a small amount. I would then turn the brass 1/3 turn, and touch the bullet to the plug, and back back out and would see the brass move over centering itself relative to the seater plug and then lower the handle all the way to finish the seating.

Results. 20 the old way had bullet runout ranging from .001" to .012". 30 to 40% had runout between .004 and .007". Thats enough to see the bullet wobble if you rolled it on a mirror.

20 loaded the new tedious way, I had 100% of the loads had runout less than .005". Which is justgreat for hunting. Over80% had runout less than .003". Which I consider almost match quality straightness.

So I can conclude that with that shell holder/press/bullet seater combo, there is some slop in the shell holder or press. Some rounds I never have issues, and notice when I load the new tedious way, the brass does not scoot over any at all in the shell holder when I touch the bullet to the seater plug and back out.

I know some on here are tired of reloading after years and years of doing it and this post is not for you. But those who like the dynamics of reloading and getting straight ammo, try it out for yourself. Some of my rifles, shoot great with bad runout or good. Some like my magnums do not like alot of runout.

There is alot more components to consider also. Like varying neck thickness, and FL sizers knocking the necks out. This can be checked before seating or charging. If your necks are out of center then nothing you can do, will help.

Just a tip.
 
Old 01-21-2007, 11:03 AM
  #2  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Default RE: Little tip to eliminate runout

Thanks for the tip, BC! As a newbie, I appreciate these tips from you more experienced folks.
I'm guessing no one makes caliber specific shell holders for various presses?


edited to add word: "these" 2 2nd sentence
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Old 01-21-2007, 11:06 AM
  #3  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: Little tip to eliminate runout

Here's another thought...I think you are definately heading down the right road.

The shellholders have slop in them, but not the 'right' kind of slop. If the shellholder isn't quite perfectly aligned with the ram below it, its going to force the brass into your sizing or seating die crooked.

Here's something I discovered by accident and much later read about it in Glen Zediker's "Reloading for Competition." I took my rockchucker press completely apart one day to clean all of the priming grit out of the ram and relube it. I broke the shellholder retaining spring in the process and never replaced it. I noticed when I put a shell in the holder and ran it into the sizing die, the shellholder will slide into a position that allows the brass to align with the die.

I read the same suggestion by Glen Zediker a few years later- he says to get rid of the shell holder retention spring as it can hold the shellholder in the wrong place and can put more pressure on one side of the holder than another, further exacerbating the problem. He reccommends buying a rubber O-ring to hold the shellholder in place because it allows plenty of play and is much more convenient than having to use a shellhold not held on to the ram with anything.
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Old 01-21-2007, 12:22 PM
  #4  
bigcountry
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Default RE: Little tip to eliminate runout

Thanks for the suggestion Briman. I will look into that. I have already replaced that spring on the suggestion of RCBS. So your option sounds appealing. Yea, my press is very nasty. Never been apart before.
 
Old 01-21-2007, 12:50 PM
  #5  
Giant Nontypical
 
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Default RE: Little tip to eliminate runout

How much is the runout affecting your groups?

I haven't worried about it before, but if a makes a noticeable difference, I might start.
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Old 01-21-2007, 12:57 PM
  #6  
bigcountry
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Default RE: Little tip to eliminate runout

ORIGINAL: North Texan

How much is the runout affecting your groups?

I haven't worried about it before, but if a makes a noticeable difference, I might start.
As I say, some guns, like a 7mm08 I have, you can shoot rocks sideways thru it and get subMOA. But others like my 300RUM or ones with alot of freebore, it seems to affect it alot. I did alot of testing where I separated out my bad with my excellent. It made a different from going from .5MOA to 1.5MOA. Thats considerable.

I usually see it affect guys who say, "I found a great load was getting .5" groups at 100 yards the other day, but now, I am all other the place". I go over to thier ammo, and roll it, and watch it wobble like nobodies business. Is that the reason? Who knows, but I know when I take it out of the equation, its not a problem anymore.

I love reloading and learning new things. And love striving to make the best ammo I can. I know I am very particular. but its my hobby, and I love it.

I say for anyone who has been struggling to get loads working they shoot great one day and bad another, take a look at it.

 
Old 01-21-2007, 03:08 PM
  #7  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: Little tip to eliminate runout

This probably sounds like a silly question to you but how do you accomplish measuring run out? If someone uses soft point bullets I can’t see getting an accurate measurement with a lead tip compared to a poly carbonate tip. Do you have a trick to this ?...
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Old 01-21-2007, 03:13 PM
  #8  
 
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Default RE: Little tip to eliminate runout

Thanks. Will give it a try. I bought an old Lyman shell holder at a gun show many years ago. It has much less slop that the RCBS ones. In fact , some .308 and .30-06 rims will not fit into it. It is a Lyman 8X. It is used only for bullet seating. Much less runout with this old shell holder than with an RCBS.
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Old 01-21-2007, 03:17 PM
  #9  
bigcountry
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Default RE: Little tip to eliminate runout

ORIGINAL: trailer

This probably sounds like a silly question to you but how do you accomplish measuring run out? If someone uses soft point bullets I can’t see getting an accurate measurement with a lead tip compared to a poly carbonate tip. Do you have a trick to this ?...
I measure runout with a concentricity gauge. You put a round on it and roll it. But you measure runout not at the ogive, but more towards the neck about .1" or more above the neck.
 
Old 01-21-2007, 03:31 PM
  #10  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: Little tip to eliminate runout

Well that’s interesting, I thought you would measure just at the tip being that would be the most obvious place. How does one go about getting a concentricity gauge or were do look for one? Would you have a picture of one?...
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