Crossbow Users...
08-28-2003, 09:22 PM
#41
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kingsville Ontario Canada
Posts: 75
RE: Crossbow Users...
I agree whole heartedly with you on this as in NB you have to take a bow hunter course before you can hunt with any archery equipment. I also know people who can do the 65yrd shot with their compound, heck i watched a hunting show a few years ago where they guy shot at a ram and stuck it in its horn before getting a killing shot, i was pi$$ed that they could show such poor judgement and then show it off on TV. You will see some of my points have always been about shot placement and taking the high percentage shots that is why i asked bgunner about why he/she would want to shoot at a duck with a bow to me thats just poor judgement.
08-29-2003, 04:24 AM
#42
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: rr 1 port hope ontario canada
Posts: 47
RE: Crossbow Users...
i have never shot a duck with a bow or crossbow i aint good enuff to do it and i am proud to say i cant do it . have you ever seen guys shoot flying phesants with a bow . they can hit em 1out of 50 i have seen guys shoot ducks with a bow the ducks are sitting on the water . with a duck being so small i would thik no mater where you hit em they are going to die just when is the question . it is 618 in the morning my spelling is awfull ..... it usually is [&:]
08-29-2003, 09:10 AM
#44
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 604
RE: Crossbow Users...
Quote from bgunner:
Since I checked with the MNR, I found out that it is NOT illegal to bow fish with a crossbow, that the crossbow is classed as archery equipment.
Another quote:
In the regulations you can small game hunt with rifles. But it is illegal to use anything greater than the 270cal.
Quote from Turkman:
Since you brought this up, the archery " sales person" used to tell me that with vertical bows you can safely hunt deer out past the 70 yard range. If a person will just buy a bow (either a crossbow or compound) and go hunting, they will not matter what bow it is. It is their mentality to do it, not their ability. I have personally seen a person buy a compound in a store, told me he was going hunting the next morning (told me he never used a bow before.)
We need to educate people with truths not mistruths and stop these people that hunt without proper education and handling of their weapons of choice.
grumpy tom i dont give a rats behind what the cfc says the mnr will charge you for shooting fish with a crossbow . it is not inthere definition a bow and arrow it is bolt and a bow .
Another quote:
if the feds class as archery equipment then why cant you shoot ducks with a crossbow but you can with a compound long bow..... after all it is archery equipment isnt it ???
Quote from Turkman:
See now you prove my point. I have heard and even had to help recover deer that were shot by ignorant people who believed the 100 yard stories and still can walk into Gagnon`s or Quinte Sports tomorrow and hear the stories about the 65 yard shot that someone made last year
We need to educate people with truths not mistruths and stop these people that hunt without proper education and handling of their weapons of choice.
08-29-2003, 01:08 PM
#45
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: rr 1 port hope ontario canada
Posts: 47
RE: Crossbow Users...
grumpy did you check or did bill t check ???? i seen his post on the excalubur web site.... if he talked to a co that doesnt count he has to talk to the co superviser ... it is officers discression .... but the superviser over rules him .... i ask for a copy of the facts on paper and they would not give it to me ?????? i have contacted the district superviser of all of mnr co and want a rulling when it comes in i will post it and if i am wrong great , i know i will be bow fishing next year .... ps fishery laws are not provincial they are federal . so i was wrong on the provences not considering them bows it is the feds i will wait and see what come in
09-04-2003, 11:23 PM
#46
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 520
RE: Crossbow Users...
What the feds or provinces say is of no sematic importance. These are the same pinheads who think an airgun is a firearm. They are just creating useful classification systems for their management purposes. Like the same sex mariages. They write whatever rules they want, their opinions are hardly primary.
Obviously crossbows are a form of archery. So would be truck sized arrow throwing siege engines that fire object the size of a person. It' s pointless to ignore that for good reasons or ill, there is a prejudice against crossbows. Just last night I was watching the Twin Towers (I guess it helps if you' ve read the books). Anyway, when the bad guys breech the gate the first thing they shove through are crossbows, nasty blighters. Of course all the blond good guys have " lonbows" . These prejudices seem to be class based (like Japanese noble' s concerns about firearms ruining all the good fun they were having with swords), and they have carried forward. Also somewhat cultural, Robin Hood vs WIlliam Tell
So let' s talk bowhunting. What is modern bowhunting, other than something defined by the feds and the provs? It' s american style industrial archery, largely. We all know who it goes back to and where it goes forward to. You can imagine you' re part of it if you use a crossbow, if you want, but your dilusional. The only breech in the wall was money. As various founders kicked the bucket, or sold out, their firms started to list crossbows. Welcome to bowhunting!
So run it down for me. How many pope and young listings can you get with a crossbow? Give me the top five big name crossbow hunters? Hum turns out to be a short list?
I like all things that go bang or twang. The legitimacy of the crossbow in regular bow hunting seasons is largely under question because of prejudice, and the fact that it isn' t self-held. I' m sure someone will say the same about a compound. But if you ask people who teach archery how many people can manage their 60-70 pound compounds with 80% letoff, the answer is probably about 5%. Why, because even above average, for the general population, strong people can' t hold at full draw for over 10 seconds without loosing mechanics. Go to a PSE shooter school if you don' t know this. And again why? Let' s say you shoot a recurve, you draw to 70 pounds, and release. We ain' t talking Olympic sight archery here, where you need to be seriously strong to hold at full draw. Compare that 70# recurve to a 70# compound/cam. The pull to full draw requires more energy on the compound, and you have to hold it there, it doesn' t mater that the holding weight is just 14+ pounds. You' re still working harder than the recurve. And the recurve also uses limb tip geometry to reduce holding weight at full draw. Feel the tradition.
This holding weight thing cuts two ways: In favour of crossbows, the vast majority of " real" archers can' t fully handle their bows. Against, the average crossbow is taking advantage of the bow locking at full draw, or should be.
The nock on crossbows right now is the idea their users don' t know much. The real issue, if in fact there is one, is that if skillfuly used they would be tacticaly quite a different animal, and capable of diferent things.
On safety, I haven' t seen anyone hurt with either type of bow, but... I' m less worried about the odd arrow discharged into the ceilling of a range, than bows that are always loaded, in the same sense as a gun. Those high flyers are part of the reason we have ranges, and stores; to let the punters make fools of themselves, and gradualy learn what they can really handle. I guarantee you that kind of stuff isn' t tolerated outdoors where the big folk play.
Obviously crossbows are a form of archery. So would be truck sized arrow throwing siege engines that fire object the size of a person. It' s pointless to ignore that for good reasons or ill, there is a prejudice against crossbows. Just last night I was watching the Twin Towers (I guess it helps if you' ve read the books). Anyway, when the bad guys breech the gate the first thing they shove through are crossbows, nasty blighters. Of course all the blond good guys have " lonbows" . These prejudices seem to be class based (like Japanese noble' s concerns about firearms ruining all the good fun they were having with swords), and they have carried forward. Also somewhat cultural, Robin Hood vs WIlliam Tell
So let' s talk bowhunting. What is modern bowhunting, other than something defined by the feds and the provs? It' s american style industrial archery, largely. We all know who it goes back to and where it goes forward to. You can imagine you' re part of it if you use a crossbow, if you want, but your dilusional. The only breech in the wall was money. As various founders kicked the bucket, or sold out, their firms started to list crossbows. Welcome to bowhunting!
So run it down for me. How many pope and young listings can you get with a crossbow? Give me the top five big name crossbow hunters? Hum turns out to be a short list?
I like all things that go bang or twang. The legitimacy of the crossbow in regular bow hunting seasons is largely under question because of prejudice, and the fact that it isn' t self-held. I' m sure someone will say the same about a compound. But if you ask people who teach archery how many people can manage their 60-70 pound compounds with 80% letoff, the answer is probably about 5%. Why, because even above average, for the general population, strong people can' t hold at full draw for over 10 seconds without loosing mechanics. Go to a PSE shooter school if you don' t know this. And again why? Let' s say you shoot a recurve, you draw to 70 pounds, and release. We ain' t talking Olympic sight archery here, where you need to be seriously strong to hold at full draw. Compare that 70# recurve to a 70# compound/cam. The pull to full draw requires more energy on the compound, and you have to hold it there, it doesn' t mater that the holding weight is just 14+ pounds. You' re still working harder than the recurve. And the recurve also uses limb tip geometry to reduce holding weight at full draw. Feel the tradition.
This holding weight thing cuts two ways: In favour of crossbows, the vast majority of " real" archers can' t fully handle their bows. Against, the average crossbow is taking advantage of the bow locking at full draw, or should be.
The nock on crossbows right now is the idea their users don' t know much. The real issue, if in fact there is one, is that if skillfuly used they would be tacticaly quite a different animal, and capable of diferent things.
On safety, I haven' t seen anyone hurt with either type of bow, but... I' m less worried about the odd arrow discharged into the ceilling of a range, than bows that are always loaded, in the same sense as a gun. Those high flyers are part of the reason we have ranges, and stores; to let the punters make fools of themselves, and gradualy learn what they can really handle. I guarantee you that kind of stuff isn' t tolerated outdoors where the big folk play.
09-04-2003, 11:49 PM
#47
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 520
RE: Crossbow Users...
On the 70 yard stuff, and the instant bowhunter stuff:
On the 70 yds. Of course you can kill a deer with a compound at 70 yards, and there are even a few people who might have business trying it.
Ballisticaly I don' t recomend going out to 70 yards and trying to catch the arrows. I don' t recomend it at any range. Remember Agencourt.[
]
Hitting at that range is a whole other thing. Go to a 3D event, and see if anyone misses the 10 ring on any of the targets, ever
. That' s max 50-55 yards. On the other hand there are guys who hit almost all the Xs in a screaming arizona wind. There is a lot less at stake, and in play, in 3d. You' re not shooting at flesh and blood that feels pain much as we do, and can move whenever it wants to.
In fact returning to my PSE shooting school experience of about 10 years ago, George said they comonly shot proghorn at 70-80 yards, though they didn' t use to generaly talk about it. He said if you didn' t have that shot, you reaaly didn' t have much chance. Now that isn' t true today, and may not have been true 30 years ago. But it sure could be true in his particular bit of terrain. After all some gun hunters used to write you can' t get within 500 yards of pronghorn.
OK, but we are talking about serious international level shooters here. Hey guess what there are folks who can run a sub 4 minute mile, etc... I' m not one of them
Finaly, longbows carry energy out there further than crossbows. One could make a crossbow with identical ballistics to a compound, but that isn' t what we generaly have.
The instant bowhunter thing:
The difference between CBs and XBs is that the guy who marches out the door with the Coumpound is not going to have the slightest hope of hitting the side of a barn, The knowledge and tuning required to get even a decent set-up in the field is massive, learning to shoot takes years unless you get expert attention fromt he start, or are uncomonly motivated. The proshop can help with the gear, but even so I know a lot of folks who got a persistant pain in their rotator cuff after the first 20 shots. The XB is all prepackaged. Sighting is presumably required.
Also because of the you-need-to-draw-it thing, most novice CB hunters are unlikely to get even close to a shot, often for years and years. With the XB, your chances may or not be better, but you can get off an arrow, not just make a fool of yourself with an arrow falling off the rest.
I don' t have a dog in this fight, as to which is better for hunting. It was a highly credible idea say back in the days when almost all broadheads were user sharpened, that and instant crossbow hunter might be a bad idea. But we and the gear have evolved, and I am not so sure this reflex response is any more credible today for XBs that rifles. You can' t police the sport in the days of packaged everything, videos and sports channels, the internet, just by making one method somewhat more difficult. As others have said, you need more intergrity than that, both as a sport, and a hunter.
On the 70 yds. Of course you can kill a deer with a compound at 70 yards, and there are even a few people who might have business trying it.
Ballisticaly I don' t recomend going out to 70 yards and trying to catch the arrows. I don' t recomend it at any range. Remember Agencourt.[
]Hitting at that range is a whole other thing. Go to a 3D event, and see if anyone misses the 10 ring on any of the targets, ever
. That' s max 50-55 yards. On the other hand there are guys who hit almost all the Xs in a screaming arizona wind. There is a lot less at stake, and in play, in 3d. You' re not shooting at flesh and blood that feels pain much as we do, and can move whenever it wants to.In fact returning to my PSE shooting school experience of about 10 years ago, George said they comonly shot proghorn at 70-80 yards, though they didn' t use to generaly talk about it. He said if you didn' t have that shot, you reaaly didn' t have much chance. Now that isn' t true today, and may not have been true 30 years ago. But it sure could be true in his particular bit of terrain. After all some gun hunters used to write you can' t get within 500 yards of pronghorn.
OK, but we are talking about serious international level shooters here. Hey guess what there are folks who can run a sub 4 minute mile, etc... I' m not one of them
Finaly, longbows carry energy out there further than crossbows. One could make a crossbow with identical ballistics to a compound, but that isn' t what we generaly have.
The instant bowhunter thing:
The difference between CBs and XBs is that the guy who marches out the door with the Coumpound is not going to have the slightest hope of hitting the side of a barn, The knowledge and tuning required to get even a decent set-up in the field is massive, learning to shoot takes years unless you get expert attention fromt he start, or are uncomonly motivated. The proshop can help with the gear, but even so I know a lot of folks who got a persistant pain in their rotator cuff after the first 20 shots. The XB is all prepackaged. Sighting is presumably required.
Also because of the you-need-to-draw-it thing, most novice CB hunters are unlikely to get even close to a shot, often for years and years. With the XB, your chances may or not be better, but you can get off an arrow, not just make a fool of yourself with an arrow falling off the rest.
I don' t have a dog in this fight, as to which is better for hunting. It was a highly credible idea say back in the days when almost all broadheads were user sharpened, that and instant crossbow hunter might be a bad idea. But we and the gear have evolved, and I am not so sure this reflex response is any more credible today for XBs that rifles. You can' t police the sport in the days of packaged everything, videos and sports channels, the internet, just by making one method somewhat more difficult. As others have said, you need more intergrity than that, both as a sport, and a hunter.
09-10-2003, 11:38 AM
#48
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 380
RE: Crossbow Users...
Archery hunting is getting close to your game to take with an arrow. Crossbows have the same hunting range (maxium about 35 yards) as compounds.
I have an ExoMag, 330fps...sweet crossbow with a scope....I stick to the ground when I go out during archery season and stay clear of really thick brush...love it!
09-10-2003, 03:40 PM
#49
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
Posts: 6,921
RE: Crossbow Users...
A xbow doesn' t fit into my definition as archery tackle, because to me part of the challenge is to draw and possibly hold the bow in presence of an animal. While yes they use similar components, tatics and range. I have shot both and just prefer a compound. Legally here the crossbow can be used in ML season or rifle season, so I would see no advantage to using one. Even if they allowed anybody to use an xbow during regular archery I would not choose to do so, but if legal and your happy go hard! The obvious exception is medical reasons, I would never want to rob somebody ability to enjoy the sport due to physical limitations.
As far as traditional goes not much we consider mainstream archery is very traditional. I really find no arguement in saying either is more traditional, nothing beside a stick and string is traditional. Advancements are part of the sport and when the governing body(s) agree it can be used in a specific season than we as sportsman can choose which is the best for ourselves only!
Good luck and have a great season!
As far as traditional goes not much we consider mainstream archery is very traditional. I really find no arguement in saying either is more traditional, nothing beside a stick and string is traditional. Advancements are part of the sport and when the governing body(s) agree it can be used in a specific season than we as sportsman can choose which is the best for ourselves only!
Good luck and have a great season!