RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

If the shoot you attended was an IBO shoot it seems perhaps the people who said your bow was a recurve should go back and check the wording of the rule. #1 states if your bow string touches only the nocks of the bow it is a longbow by IBO definition. It does not mention anything else such as limb design. It took me awhile but I see your point on the rest, it raises the arrow up from the shelf more than 1/8 a no no, while it is ok to move it out more than 1/8 from the face of the riser. Tell those other longbow shooters and recurve shooters that are not attending shoots with you to quit being lazy and go with you. The greatest problem with traditional is not so much equipment as it seems to be an unwillingness to participate. I may not agree with you on the rules per say but you are getting out and letting people see that there are traditionalist around and that puts you head and shoulders above the ones who do not. We seem to forget that archery is not life and death and sometimes get carried away with the details when the most important thing is not winning or losing but enjoying ourselves and spending time with others that have a simalar intrest, a point as an active member of lawenforcement I had brought home all to vividly on the icy roads today. Enjoy yourself and be thankful we all live in a place where we can even participate in our chosen sport and such disscussions as we have are allowed, and no the rules are not perfect , never will be to everyone but the people who establish them and administer them do a job that I suspect is far more difficult than most of us will ever realise and do the best they can within the system they have to work in. Stay safe all.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Darryl,

Don't want to mis-represent the Saturday Night meet, the club, is a member of several National Organizations and uses IBO 3D rules. The 1/8" rule should be changed to ¼" rule, I hope you agree. (Smile). Normally five days a week I shoot 300 or more arrows over a 3-4 hour period of time at an indoor range which is part of a good size Hunting/Archery store. During that period of time, if anyone has a question about Traditional Archery, they get referred to me. There is one other Traditional Archer, that usually practices during his lunch hour. That's it. I try and seduce the stores customers into Traditional equipment, or to bring former Longbow/Recurve shooters back into the fold. Sometimes during the summer the other Longbow shooter and I will attend 3D meets, but the majority of the time, the young Compound shooters carry me around with them. I accuse them of shooting FORD's (Fix Or Repair Daily) and they fuss about my tomato stake with a string and I correct them, it’s a Hickory tobacco stick with fishing line. I still feel that appropriate rule changes may help people already shooting return to meets.

We do have similar philosophies on life; it seems, just not on rules. (grin). Guess its cause I use to serve many of the same clients you do now. I'm a retired 68-year-old schoolteacher. Keep it right side up, drive defensively, and be extra careful on your traffic stops and domestic disturbance calls.

Take care, Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill-(Gray Ghost),


Lets say that Babe Ruth Jr. has played baseball from age 6 to now. He is 22 years old and has set every hitting and home run record from t-ball till now. The Yankees sign him up. He go's into the house his dad built, Yankee staidum, and steps up to plate for his first at bat. He has his trusty alum. bat in hand. The one that he has used for years ! The ump. tells him, " Ya can't use that bat son. Thats the rules ! " What I am getting at is, he knew that before he got there.

All the rules for the MTRD class are there for a reason. They are there to insure that no one can gain an unfair advantage with their equipment. We have one man in our area that I will use to make my point. This guy went from 210-220 shooter (30 targets) to a 260-270 shooter over night. He had cut his arrows off in differant lengths so he could shoot point on at all the targets. He had them marked so he could tell his 15 yd. arrow from his 30 yd. arrow and so forth. That is the reason for the all arrows must look alike rule.


I geuss what I am trying to say is it's their game so we have to play by their rules. I do not have a problem with that. I do wish that we were treated as equals with all the other class's.



Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill,

Lets take your young man, or me back to the 1940's, when he/I started playing "sand-lot ball" in some cow pasture or school yard out in the country, at the age of nine. We played pick-up ball games after school. Elementary, Junior High and High School kids played with out of school teens, and old men of 25 to 45, most of who were 4F. Whatever it took to get two teams. One of these fellows had club feet and club hands, couldn't’t have worn a glove if he had one. But, he managed to field a ball, got his turn at bat, he played ball. None of us thought to tell him he couldn't’t play. Some old men had youngsters run the bases for them. We probably broke a lot of rules. But no one told us we couldn't’t play. We enjoyed Our game of Baseball. We were not the pros, we were kids playing sandlot ball. We were having fun! If someone had made us play strictly by the rules used by Pro's, we probably wouldn't’t have had fun. Some of us would not have been allowed to play, and many would have quit. We understood cheating, and were very quick to stop it, and get rid of the cheater.

That’s the idea I'm trying to get across here. The "game" of Archery is being choked by rules that keep some of from playing with the equipment or style we have. The fellow that cut off his arrows broke the rules and should not be allowed to play the game. No argument there, he was a cheater.

However, you did not point out how any of my suggested rules would cause any of the top 40 MRTD archers from this past year to suddenly be overtaken and fall behind 40-50 pts. As a result of such changes.

"It's their game so we have to play by their rules" No Bill, its not, its our game and it should be our rules. Rules we have had input about, rules we have discussed, cussed, and decided on. Not rules handed down to us without Democratic input. Longbow Hunters/Archers are not treated as equals, probably because they have never spoken up and had a voice as I suspect compound shooters have.

It is a game, and it should be as fun as it was when we first got started. I don’t know if the rules will ever be changed or not.
I enjoy competition and believe in rules. But, when they start to reduce the enjoyment and fun, or limits who can play, then its time to think about a change

I'll tell you how I intend to play this summer. I am going to shoot in every match I can. I'll walk down to the half-way point between the Orange stake and the 3D target. Then, I'll scoot off the trail, left or right, maybe 5-10 yds till I find a nice tunnel through the brush and trees, and I'll take my shot from that spot. If I feel lucky, or it’s a large animal, such as a Lion, Buffalo, Elk, or standing Bear. I'll shoot at it from a spot selected the same way from the Orange stake, and then fire another one from my half-way point. And I would invite any Longbow Hunter who wants to have fun to join me. Just think two shots at the same animal from two different ranges, once in a while (grin). I'll keep score, and keep my card so I can see if I'm improving. Wish I could turn the card in, but that doesn't matter, you see I shoot a Longbow.

Take care, Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Bill-(GG),


You go to a regular Sunday shoot at Heartland Archry Club. ( Your 1940's ball game ) Now then, that club can play by whatever rules it wants to. (it's their club)There are 1000's of these types of shoots all over the world.

Now then in 2 weeks they have IBO world Quilfier.(Yankee's game) In that shoot all IBO rules are followed. Again 100's of these all over the world.


Now there's a guy from Germany. He likes to hold the string with his pinky finger and use pointer finger as a sight.The guy from San Fran. He likes to use alum. arrows and fill them with differant amounts of wieght so he can hold at one place all the time and arrows will strake target where he wants. Here's poor old Bill. He shoots a hickory stick with a three under release. Is the way any of these guy's shoot wrong, No. They shoot the way they want to ,but what happens when they go to the world series ? Who say's what is fair to German or old sweet Bill. They are all shooting a bow where the string does not touch after it leaves the string groove. These are all longbows .


I shot 3-under and alum. arrows for a long time. I knew that IBO rules said that if I was going to shoot in their events I would have to play by the rules they had set. Did I agree with all of them , NO ! These rules are to try to make the playing field equal. The German guy, the guy from San Fran. and old sweet Bill had to change if they wanted to play.

Just the way I see it.



Bill Leslie

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill, (WFL)

I believe that the arrow problem is covered with the rule I proposed. # "3. Arrow shafts shall be identical in length, weight and color, except for normal wear. Arrow shafts may be wood, aluminum, carbon, or a combination of aluminum and carbon. All arrows will be Hunting weight (i.e., a minimum weight of 8.5 to 10.1 or greater, grains per pound of draw weight)" The individual in your example would be in violation of the proposed rules and his/her score would not count. Note "same weight, same length"

On your other two examples, both are methods of shooting and have nothing to do with equipment. If it is found that the pinkie finger, or three under allow these shooters to win, time after time. Then other shooters would have to consider seeing if that technique is really superior for all Bowhunters, or just those two.

You’re an excellent shot and even though I don't know exactly where you rank in the world, I am sure you're in the top five, and I think number two. Honestly now were you that much better with Aluminum and three under? If so, how many pts better?

" These rules are to try to make the playing field equal" I understand that and agree 100% Bill. That is what I am trying to address here. Just what is required to make the playing field level, and WHAT IS NOT REQUIRED.

Please select one of the proposed rules and tell me how it would allow someone that is now ranked in the second 40 (41-80) in the world, to move up to number 20 in the world ranking. I have yet to hear how any of the suggested rules would have such a drastic effect on scores.

The stated mission of IBO is "To promote, encourage and foster the sport of bowhunting; further bowhunter education; act as a political coordinator and liaison for the protection and advancement of bowhunting; - function as a clearinghouse for essential bowhunter information; and - adhere to the basic ideal of the unification of bowhunters."

Nowhere in the stated mission of IBO does it say target shooting. It says BOWHUNTER, each and every time. If and when the IBO changes its mission to Target Archery, rather than Bowhunting, then I will shut up, tuck my tail between my legs and slink off into the brush. Because, I am not a Target Archer, nor do I really want to be one. I would however, like to be a Bowhunter and to play a Bowhunter game. The point is to increase the number of participating BOWHUNTERS.

We are debating or arguing these issues here, in an attempt to get the other person/s to change their mind and to adopt our point of view. Whose mind, if changed, might have the greater positive influence on the growth of Longbow Hunters in the IBO?

Take care, GG

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

There ar too many Bill here <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Bill (GG) I shot with Keith Bain at the IBO worlds a few years back , and he said he could shoot 10-15 points higher with alum.
arrows. Don't know if Bill (WFL) can shoot higher with alum. or carbon but it would be interesting to know , well Bill (WFL) ??

Billstick

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

I shot MTRD at the World's last year. Never used alum but do average 20 pts or more higher with carbon. For me, there is little scoring difference between the hybrid longbow and a recurve. I choose to enter the MTRD because I felt the equipment restrictions put us all on an equal level to truly measure skills and abilities to deal with pressure. I used the same equipment I planned to hunt with this year so competing did better my bowhunting skills. If I felt I wanted to use carbon or alum, I would have no problem entering the Recurve Hunter class with my hybrid and feeling I would be as competitive as in the MTRD. Perhaps the new Recurve Hunter class should be named Trad Hunter - any stick shooting any hunting arrow from the shelf with any release. JMHO
Steve B

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Billstick,

When you talk about the World Championship, won by Keith with a 328 score, keep in mind the man behind him with a 326, was Bill Leslie (WFL/KY). Maybe he will provide you with his experience with other shafts. SteveBNy didn’t do too bad himself with a 289. Steve has already told you how many points another type shaft would change his score.

SteveBNy, since you shoot about 20 pts better with carbon, I would like to know if you are comparing carbons of hunting weight, with wood arrows of the same hunting weight? (Oranges to oranges, not apple to oranges) BillStick, did this come up in your discussion with Keith? As for instance, are you comparing a finished carbon arrow at 400 grains to a wooden arrow at 600 grains? If so the 20 pts difference in score may be due to something else. Without knowing more about the aluminum and carbon arrows being talked about and compared with wood, all I have is a guess. I can contribute both of these increases in scores to the arrows being lighter with a flatter trajectory contributing to these improvements in scores, which would be outside rule #3 above. (8.5 to 10.1 gr per pound draw weight)

If these excellent of archers, were to shoot a round with each type arrow weighing 10.5 grains per pound of pull, and the results still showed Aluminum and Carbon scoring more points then we would have something. Would any of these gentlemen care to conduct an experiment for us? Or is there data out there on this subject already. If a valid experiment showed a 20 pt difference, then the question would become, Why not enter the 21st Century?

Steve, you are back to lumping Longbow Hunters into a Recurve Class. I'm interested in having a home for all Longbow Hunters. There are 25 Classes designed for Compound shooters. There are four classes for Recurve shooters, and one for Longbow and one for the crossbow. If adopting the rules, suggested above for the Traditional Class, would upset the Status Quo so much, then simply create a second longbow class, to be called Longbow Hunter Class. Don't you think this would be a step in achieving the IBO goal of &quot; unification of
bowhunters&quot;?

Take care, GG

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Grey Ghost:
I should start by saying that I do not shoot Trad. and am not as informed on the intricacies of that style of shooting as I should be. However, I am familiar with management/leadership responsibilities and limitations. What I can tell you is that no governing body can ever establish a set of rules which will totally please everyone. Niether can they effectively change and adapt their rules every time a new player joins the game. It is our responsibility to adapt to the rules of the game we are joining.

On the surface some of your suggestions appear to make sence. They fail to take into consideration larger significant factors. Things such as &quot;entering the 21st century&quot; with regard to wood arrows can lead to the loss of a very ancient and honorable shooting style. Better is always an individual perception. Further your willingness to disregard established rules as you see fit takes credibility away from any other arguments you might make. Your plan to select your own shooting lanes and locations during tournaments is of significant concern. In this you display a total disregard for the safety of your fellow competitors. Courses are set up taking into consideration the lay of the land and the possibility of glancing shots. If you are willing to disregard these rules, there is no reason to believe that any others will have more effect.

The &quot;unification&quot; of bowhunters does start with getting you and your buddies together, but it goes far beyond that. There are manufacterers and proshops to consider, not to mention clubs, cities, states and countries. Oh yeah - the I in IBO stands for international.