RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

If you do not want divisive rules then why even have a longbow class at all, why not simply traditional ? Is there really that much difference between a modern longbow or a hybred longbow and a recurve ? If for the sake of disscussion we wanted to take that even farther why have any divisions at all , why not compounds with scopes shooting against compounds with pin sights and fingers against releases and all of them shooting with/against recurves and longbows. We would certainly have real unity then on paper at least but I dont think this arrangement would make anyone happy. The rules are not divisive only established to provide competition that is on an equal basis for each participant. If on the other hand there is a difference in shooting between a recurve and a longbow, three under versus split finger, wood versus any arrow then it would seem that the rules we have are pretty fair.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Gray Ghost :
It seems that you want the IBO longbow rules to conform to your shooting style and equipment. You can shoot in the HR class with a longbow and any arrow with 3 under, or do you feel you are at a disavantage shooting a longbow against recurves?
I just don't understand why you whnt them to conform to your shooting style , I doubt if they change the rules to the way you want that it would bring that many more shooters into the longbow class 10 , 15 ?? Just shoot the equipment you are comfortable with and shoot in the class that your equipment defines. Look at it this way the IBO could have only one trad. class like the ASA and then you would realy have something to complain about. Shoot and have fun !!!

Billstick

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Folks,

First, I would strongly urge you and other Longbow Hunters to respond to this thread by offering "constructive criticism" of my suggestion. A free and open exchange of factual information is usually the way progress is made in a free society. If it makes you feel better, you are also free to attribute selfish motives to the set of "Longbow Hunter" rules I have suggested.

Guess its time I responded to, some comments in this thread, which are critical of me in some cases and not constructive criticism of what I have proposed in others. Maybe some of the reasons for my suggested rules should be examined. Or would that be too constructive?

Billstick. "It seems that you want the IBO longbow rules to conform to your shooting style and equipment" If you read carefully, I think you should find I want the longbow rules to include me, and others like me, and others that are different from me. You seem to prefer rules that exclude, and that is an altogether difference in philosophy. If you can present me with an explanation of how your philosophy furthers the major aim of IBO of " the unification of bowhunters" I would like to know how. If this major aim is to be replaced with "the unification of target archers", then you are absolutely right and I am completely wrong.

Your statement "do you feel you are at a disadvantage shooting a longbow against recurves" fails to address the point that each type of bow, Longbow, Recurve, Compound and now Crossbow are served best by shooting against others shooting their type bow. Multi-subdivisions are made for only one type of bow, the compound. I assume you don't subscribe to the old cliché, what is good for the "goose is good for the gander." I'm not suggesting that Longbow Hunters have multiple classes in IBO, like the compound Hunters, but a single all inclusive class of Longbow Hunters.

" why you whnt them to conform to your shooting style" Billstick, do you really think that I am the only person that shoots a 3 pc Longbow made by a hundred Bowyers, or a R/D made by others Bowyers? You think these Bowyers have stayed in business from selling only a dozen Longbows that differ from your? Get real; there are thousands of us out here.

" something to complain about" Am I to understand that any suggestion that might change the status Quo, by including a large set of Hunters is a complaint, and a threat to you? This large set of Longbow Hunters may not want to shoot in 3D meets, that’s their right, but they should be allowed by the rules.

Darryl Longbow,
"what the majority of longbow shooters most often actually shoot (wood arrows with a split finger release}" Darryl, I understand that under the present rules your statement is factually correct, but that is due to the exclusion of all others. However, I do differ with your use of the term "majority". I don't think any of us knows, with absolute certainty, what the Majority may be. Do you know how many of Longbows made and sold by the 150 Bowyers listed at < http://www.women-outdoors.com/traditional/bowyers1.htm > meet the present rules, how many don't. This also does not include the 3-500? or more "selfbow" makers that sell bows, or the hundreds of selfbow makers that shoot their own bows and whose buddies do. One of the Major Sponsors of this site makes an arrow called the "Legacy" as well as other models of Aluminum arrows. Carbons the same way. Do you know as a fact that the majority of Longbow Hunters use the split finger release? I doubt it. How many gloves are made and sold compared to tabs made and sold. I don't know, but you claim to possess such information? You, in essence, are accusing me of a selfish act; I don't see it that way. Is protection of the Status Quo, a selfish and self-serving act?

" If you are not receiving any encouragement from other longbow shooters" Ahhh! Darryl, you have to understand, that although there may be many Longbow Hunters in this area, often I'm the only one that shows up at IBO meets and shoot. As a for instance, tonight (Sat. Dec 7) I attended an indoor shoot after driving an hour and a half and won the Traditional class (longbow and recurve) with no trouble. I was the only one in my class. Yet I know personally of at least six other people who could be in that class with Longbows and twice as many with recurves. If they wanted to shoot under the rules of exclusion. I won by default, (as no other competitor showed up)(the present rules?) not by good shooting.

" There is a place for three under and any arrow so allow those of us who shoot wood and split fingers" A factual statement and I don't suggest that any rule be made to change that. The question you need to answer is a factual one, not one based on emotion. Do you really feel that people that shoot Longbows made the Bowyers and selfbowers mentioned above? Are all going to outshoot you? Since wood arrows are usually more forgiving, do you think they are going to outshoot you by shooting aluminum or carbon? Is this a confidence problem? (note my suggestion include a weight requirements more in line with Hunters and less in line with target shooters)(my arrows are 11.8 grs per #).

BowPro "Do we seek input from individuals? Sometimes. Do we ask at local shoots? That is not really practical. Although to say that input is not provided locally would not be true. Any time any of us are at a local shoot, we certainly recieve comments. But, ascertaining the opinions of a class or group of shooters from a local area is unrealistic" " I have often looked for that ivory tower thing, just haven't found it yet." Bowpro, IMHO this is a clear-cut description of: an Ivory Tower; a paternalistic/children; Management/blue collar worker; or Monarch/peon relationship. Surely someone in the management of this organization must be capable of gathering Data from individuals at meets by surveys being handed out to participants. By having survey's handed out by Bowers when they sell "THEIR LONGBOWS" to someone. All data should not be from "any of us" (management), but should come from the participants.

"Sometimes it is not easy to find the most amicable opinion for the greatest number of us." I understand this completely; I just question what is the "greatest number". I think the most reliable data, at this point in time, would be to ask all 150 Bowyers to help you gather this data, by providing some numbers based either upon the actual number of Longbows of each type they have sold or what Percent of each type sold. I would also suggest the same thing for all the Selfbow makers out there. (Don’t forget to include Martins, etc.) The same thing goes for tabs and gloves. What is the data on how many of each are sold each year? Without data, you are only using the same opinions from the same select group, over and over again.


Fastfletch, your statement " the membership had a chance to submit their comments pro or con prior to the next annual meeting" hits the X ring, from where I sit!

Take care, Bill Hayden aka The Grey Ghost

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Gray Ghost : You still did not answer my question , do you feel that you are at a diavantage shooting a longbow w/ alum. or carbon arrows ,3pc. and center shot, and 3 fingers under in the Hunter recurve class?
Most r/d longbow fit in the MTRD class , I did see the 2nd place finisher in Flatwoods ,WV get disqualified for having a center shot bow,it was a 3pc. takedown.
I do agree with you on the rule about 3 fingers under , I think they should let you shoot any style release as long as one finger touches the nock. Another rule I don't understand is "all arrows must have the same color fletching , but that is the rule so I will conform to them.

Billstick

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Billstick,

Sorry, I didn't mean to be ducking your question. I meant this statement to address that "each type of bow, Longbow, Recurve, Compound and now Crossbow are served best by shooting against others shooting their type bow". I have shot against recurve shooters before and their bows are usually faster and with "Light arrows" they have an advantage only if they are more accurate, steady, and just better shots. If we are equal in our shooting skills, I think they are at a disadvantage because their style bow (IMO)are more sensitive to shooter error. If the recurve shooter makes just as many errors as I make, I'll win. Keep in mind, I don't claim to be a good archer, just a concerned one. In fact, I am down right lousy. (grin)

On the subject of arrows, I have nothing against wooden arrows, love to shoot them and feel they are more forgiving of my style of shooting. But, since during all our bad weather, I shoot my 300 arrows a day indoors, I have found that with the backstops we use, I loose too many field points, endangering the arrows of others and requiring repair on my woodies on a daily basis. I don't have the same problem with my 2020 Legacies.

For me personally, the single most important change would be to allow the Apache (3 under) release. However, the proposal was intended to permit others, now excluded, a home for participation. I have read where some Longbow men would like longer yardage. I think my proposal not only covers them, but allows others to shoot at a more appropriate yardage for them. I don't believe we need to make FITA archers out of every longbow shooter. I have a Gold Medalist for that. (Orange stake sets the distance, 1/6 green stake, 1/3 the distance to the yellow, and 1/2 the distance for Longbow Hunter. Bows, then arrows. Arrows are the least of my concerns, but they may be for others.

Take care, Bill Hayden

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Bill :Like I said I don't understand why they do not allow 3 fingers under either . Don't you think the 125 gr, no nibb point rule in HR would take care of the super light arrows ? As for shot distance , well this is target archery . I know the B stands for bowhunter in IBO but their tournaments have evolved into 3d target archery. Back when I started shooting IBO there was only one class for recurves and longbows and we shot from the orange stakes , talk about fun shots !! Take care .

Bill S.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Greyghost, I went back and looked at the current rules about longbows,I fail to see where any of the bows made by any of the bowers out there will not conform so long as the string touches only the limb tips, hybreds are legal as are R/D type of longbows. The center shot rule allows you to build out the side untill it conforms to the 1/8. It does not require the bower to construct a special bow that is IBO only legal as is required in the IFAA shoots on a international basis. I base my majority idea (which I agree in that no one can say with absolute certainty)on personal observation of 40 plus years of shooting and attendence at many shoots that allow aluminum , carbon, or wood and in my observation the majority have chosen split finger and wood. As to wood being more forgiving I must disagree in that while it may or may not be more forgiving than any other material it certainly will never be as consistent and hence not as accurate overall. In your opinion is three under easier to achieve a desired level of accuracy with over split finger and is there enough difference between a longbow and a recurve to warrant a division for each ? I to often compete against recurves and with my wood arrows and find it is the shooter and not the equipment that makes the difference but that when you go to three under and aluminum there does seem to be a difference. Tip for your field points on wood , you might try reaming out the point with steel wool and a degreaser then attaching with two part epoxy, had the same problem until I started doing this and now you cant get them off without drilling or burning them out.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Billstick,

Glad we agree on the tab! (smile).

No! I don't think requiring 125gr tips or no nib's, addresses the real problem. Why make a rule so easily circumvented. IMO that rule is intended to level the playing field between wooden, aluminum and carbon arrows. Therefore, instead of addressing this problem indirectly, lets address the real problem,their differences in weight.

Longbow hunters seek, foam, plastic tubing, rope, heavy tip'S and other means to beef up the weights of their aluminum arrows OR carbon shafts. Wooden arrow Longbow Hunters go for hard wood shafts, footed shafts, compressed wood shafts and laminated shafts to solve the same problem, HUNTING WEIGHT SHAFTS. A large number of Longbow Bowyers will void their warranty if the archer shoots underweight, anemic arrows. So that problem takes care of itself if you require hunting weight arrows in a Longbow Hunter Class. The proposed "minimum weight of 8.5 to 10.1 or greater, grains per pound of draw weight" is a starting point. (I personally shoot in practice 582 gr arrow's with a 45-50 draw weight).

Bill, I think you should still be able to do the same, (shoot from the orange, green, yellow stake) under the Longbow Hunter class, if you so choose. The young compound Archers that let me go with them to these IBO meets, often have me take a "free shot" at a Standing Bear, Lion, Buffalo, or Elk from their Orange stake. However, I don't want a 35 yard shot at a Wolverine, Raccoon, or an over the water Beaver.

Glad to tell you what I think Bill, but please don't let my personal information, confuse the proposal for all Longbow Hunter's.

Take care, Bill Hayden

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Darryl,

Shot last night in an indoor Meet and was placed in my class based on my bow being a Recurve. My bow, (Roy Hall, Navajo Scout, 3pc) only has the string touching the limbs at the tip when strung, but strung some of the R/D is still seen as a visible bend in the limb prior to the tip, and that makes it a "Recurve" to them. All or most 3pc bows are ruled on this way. Same thing with R/D, if the curve can be seen it may be ruled a Recurve. The only way I see to overcome these rulings is to clarify the definition and to say that these bows are legal longbows.

I have no problem with making the center shot portion of the rule, but differ on the 1/8" limitation on the shelf. I follow what I believe Bill Matlock suggest on my shelf. I form a "crowned sight window and shelf" by placing a strip of 1/8" leather shoe string on both and then covering both with a sealskin rest attaching with barge cement. This violates the 1/8" rule.

I understand your remarks on consistency of wood arrows, but feel in most case's they can be spined and massed close enough to provide accuracy far superior to my ability.

To address these two question's. " In your opinion is three under easier to achieve a desired level of accuracy with over split finger and is there enough difference between a longbow and a Recurve to warrant a division for each?"

IMO out to 25 yards it is easier to be accurate with three under, and that 30 yds and beyond it's easier to be accurate with split fingers. In other words, I believe that three under is more accurate for hunting, and split fingers are more accurate for long target practice.

In regards to the second part of your question, again IMO, I would refer you back to a prior answer, " each type of bow, Longbow, Recurve, Compound and now Crossbow are served best by shooting against others shooting their type bow". That being said. The History of Archery has established these bow types, not me, and I feel it is reasonable to follow this division if establishing rules for this and any other organized game.

If I have counted correctly, there are 29 classes. Lets examine the names relevant to this discussion: HUNTER RECURVE allows Recurve and Longbow. Note Longbows are not mentioned in the title: RECURVE UNAIDED, note that it again allows Recurves and longbows and title; YOUTH TRADITIONAL, Recurves and longbows again with the Traditional title (?); FEMALE TRADITIONAL, Recurve and Longbow; TRADITIONAL LONGBOW, no Recurve.

Except for the Crossbow class, Longbows and recurves may shoot in all 28 classes; class's is designed for Compound shooters and their equipment. There are really four (4) Recurve classes designed for Recurve shooter and Longbows again are allowed to shoot. There is only one longbow classes, and it does not permit all Longbow shooter to participate. The discrimination against Longbows even continues over into the " Shooter of the Year" with Recurve Shooters (RU) and X-bow is included, but good old MTRD is excluded. Don't you see a pattern here?

I'll have to try your suggestion on attaching field pts. Thanks!

Take care, Bill Hayden

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Darryl,

Shot last night in an indoor Meet and was placed in my class based on my bow being a Recurve. My bow, (Roy Hall, Navajo Scout, 3pc) only has the string touching the limbs at the tip when strung, but strung some of the R/D is still seen as a visible bend in the limb prior to the tip, and that makes it a "Recurve" to them. All or most 3pc bows are ruled on this way. Same thing with R/D, if the curve can be seen it may be ruled a Recurve. The only way I see to overcome these rulings is to clarify the definition and to say that these bows are legal longbows.

I have no problem with making the center shot portion of the rule, but differ on the 1/8" limitation on the shelf. I follow what I believe Bill Matlock suggest on my shelf. I form a "crowned sight window and shelf" by placing a strip of 1/8" leather shoe string on both and then covering both with a sealskin rest attaching with barge cement. This violates the 1/8" rule.

I understand your remarks on consistency of wood arrows, but feel in most case's they can be spined and massed close enough to provide accuracy far superior to my ability.

To address these two question's. " In your opinion is three under easier to achieve a desired level of accuracy with over split finger and is there enough difference between a longbow and a Recurve to warrant a division for each?"

IMO out to 25 yards it is easier to be accurate with three under, and that 30 yds and beyond it's easier to be accurate with split fingers. In other words, I believe that three under is more accurate for hunting, and split fingers are more accurate for long target practice.

In regards to the second part of your question, again IMO, I would refer you back to a prior answer, " each type of bow, Longbow, Recurve, Compound and now Crossbow are served best by shooting against others shooting their type bow". That being said. The History of Archery has established these bow types, not me, and I feel it is reasonable to follow this division if establishing rules for this and any other organized game.

If I have counted correctly, there are 29 classes. Lets examine the names relevant to this discussion: HUNTER RECURVE allows Recurve and Longbow. Note Longbows are not mentioned in the title: RECURVE UNAIDED, note that it again allows Recurves and longbows and title; YOUTH TRADITIONAL, Recurves and longbows again with the Traditional title (?); FEMALE TRADITIONAL, Recurve and Longbow; TRADITIONAL LONGBOW, no Recurve.

Except for the Crossbow class, Longbows and recurves may shoot in all 28 classes; class's is designed for Compound shooters and their equipment. There are really four (4) Recurve classes designed for Recurve shooter and Longbows again are allowed to shoot. There is only one longbow classes, and it does not permit all Longbow shooter to participate. The discrimination against Longbows even continues over into the " Shooter of the Year" with Recurve Shooters (RU) and X-bow is included, but good old MTRD is excluded. Don't you see a pattern here?

I'll have to try your suggestion on attaching field pts. Thanks!

Take care, Bill Hayden